'Are we still on the same team?' Ischinger asks as Trump fuels NATO tensions

Wolfgang Ischinger, Chairman, Munich Security Conference:

Great to be here.

Nick Schifrin:

The report says this -- quote -- "The most powerful of those who take the axe to existing rules and institutions is U.S. President Donald Trump."

How deep has that axe already cut, do you think?

Wolfgang Ischinger:

Well, pretty deep.

I think we are, to a certain extent, in trouble when I think about those on this side of the Atlantic who have firmly believed that there is such a thing as the West. We, together, Americans, Europeans, facing our adversaries, I think a certain limit of trust has been at risk, has been lost in this period.

I admit, I'm the first to admit that there are many things that we did not do as early as we should have done.

Nick Schifrin:

We being Europeans, Germans, yes, NATO.

Wolfgang Ischinger:

We, all Europeans together, led by the big ones, including first and foremost Germany itself. We have not taken seriously.

I remember you had a defense secretary by the name of Gates a decade ago.

Nick Schifrin:

Bob Gates, yes.

Wolfgang Ischinger:

More than a decade ago. He said, this is not sustainable. You guys, Europeans, you need to do more in defense.

Nick Schifrin:

Right.

Wolfgang Ischinger:

We ignored it. So that's our fault.

But we're now faced with an unprecedented security situation. I'm not sure Americans understand to what extent people here live in fear. There is a war going on at our doorstep. This is longer than World War I. And I think Germans are terrified by the pictures we get daily on our television screens from Kyiv, from Odesa, from other cities about these people are freezing to death.

Nick Schifrin:

How much has the president's threats about Greenland tipped the balance, if you will, about this European concern and lack of faith in the United States?

Wolfgang Ischinger:

Well, I think the Greenland episode has created this question, which is not a foolish question. Are we still on the same team? Has the United States come to the conclusion that Europe -- that the European Union is actually not a good idea in terms of U.S. interest?

Nick Schifrin:

And President Trump has called the E.U. a foe for many years.

Wolfgang Ischinger:

Exactly.

Do we need to brace ourselves against -- for a situation where the European Union, as such, with all its bureaucratic rules and et cetera, is under threat?

Nick Schifrin:

Under threat from the United States?

Wolfgang Ischinger:

Under threat from the United States.

Nick Schifrin:

As you know and as the report acknowledges, the Trump administration has achieved a lot when it comes to world affairs. NATO spending, for example, is up to 5 percent. You have a Gaza cease-fire that even members of President Biden's administration admit they probably couldn't have achieved.

And also we now have post-Greenland more of an emphasis on security in the Arctic. And as Stephen Miller put it recently, the U.S. -- quote -- "are living in the real world" that is governed by strength, governed by force, that is governed by power. So the Trump administration thinks this is just reality and they're succeeding.

Wolfgang Ischinger:

I don't dispute that. I would be the first to say he's probably right. We live in a world of carnivores, and -- but we come from a different world. We are now relearning the hard way that, if you want to be successful in this world with an aggressive Russia, with an increasingly authoritarian global power approach from China, we need a diplomacy that is underpinned, like the United States demands from us, with sufficient military power.

That's a new lesson for us to learn.

Nick Schifrin:

Is that history why Germany, perhaps more than most European countries, feel this break, if you will, with the United States?

A new Politico poll out today says 50 percent of Germans do not believe the United States is a reliable ally, because, as you know, there are divisions within Europe. I talked to Eastern Europeans who basically say, and some Northern Europeans, including the secretary-general of NATO, Mark Rutte, say, look, good luck if you're going to do this without the United States. We still need the United States, and we still feel kinship to the United States because we need their security.

Wolfgang Ischinger:

Yes, I think the truth of the matter is, we are so worried because we know that we can't do this without the United States.

We would be helpless in terms of the nuclear threat if we didn't know there are U.S. nuclear weapons in Germany, and there are airplanes equipped to carry these nuclear weapons in terms of presenting a credible, extended nuclear deterrence picture to the other side.

Nick Schifrin:

Is the U.S. nuclear deterrence not reliable, or at least not as reliable as it used to be?

Wolfgang Ischinger:

I see no reason why there should be any doubt about this. The weapons are there. I have not heard from anyone in the United States that this is being questioned.

Nick Schifrin:

Yes.

Wolfgang Ischinger:

But if and when the United States correctly asks of us to do more about our collective defense effort in Europe, I think we should not automatically totally exclude the nuclear question.

Nick Schifrin:

Should the French be allowing their nuclear weapons to be considered for collective European defense, something that they have never done before?

Wolfgang Ischinger:

I think they're -- we're far from that point, but I think it is not a stupid idea. I think it's an important idea for us in Europe at least to examine such questions in detail.

We will not only boost our conventional defense. We're also looking at to what extent and, if so, how we could conceivably bolster our European component in the nuclear.

(Crosstalk)

Wolfgang Ischinger:

It is not written in the Bible that 450 million Europeans need 350 million Americans to defend themselves against 140 million Russians.

If we spoke with one voice more to China, also to Russia, we could probably be a more respected international actor, we, as members of the European Union, than we currently are.

Nick Schifrin:

Ambassador Wolfgang Ischinger, chairman of the Munich Security Conference, thanks very much.

Wolfgang Ischinger:

Thank you.