Border Patrol 'untrained and unskilled' for policing in urban areas, ex-CBP head says

Amna Nawaz:

And we should note we asked officials from Border Patrol, ICE and the White House to join us for an interview, but they declined our requests.

Meanwhile, the crackdown in Minnesota and the deadly shootings of two U.S. citizens are raising questions about the tactics used by federal immigration agents.

To discuss that, I'm joined by former Customs and Border Protection Commissioner Gil Kerlikowske. He also served as the chief of local police departments in multiple cities.

Gil, welcome back to the "News Hour." Thanks for being with us.

Gil Kerlikowske, Former Customs and Border Protection Commissioner: Sure.

Amna Nawaz:

So you have seen a number of videos circulating online, some even frame-by-frame analyses by different news outlets. I'm just curious, what stands out to you from what you have seen?

Gil Kerlikowske:

Well, the fact that they took him to the ground.

And he is resisting. But you would think that, with the number of agents that they had, they would be able to get his hands behind his back and get him secured and get him handcuffed. And it reminded you of kind of a football scrum, where they were all at different angles. So I didn't see them doing a particularly good job of securing him and getting him in custody.

Amna Nawaz:

Based on what you know about what happened before that interaction, what should have agents done in that case, in those circumstances?

Gil Kerlikowske:

Well, I think what they don't do and what they should be doing is that when they're confronted with somebody who is attempting to interfere or attempting to obstruct, they should tell that person we're arresting you.

This use of chemical munitions, just bringing out pepper spray, et cetera, just makes little sense. Police officers deal with these things all the time and they make a physical arrest. And that actually then deters some other people from getting involved or obstructing.

But, remember, this is a group of people, the Border Patrol in particular, who are completely untrained and unskilled for policing an urban environment.

Amna Nawaz:

I want to ask you a little bit more about that training. But can I just pick up on something you mentioned about attempting to interfere or attempting to obstruct, which is something we have heard from administration officials.

When you see the videos, is that what you see Alex Pretti doing? Many people say they see him stepping in to help a woman who was knocked down. Is that interference to you?

Gil Kerlikowske:

I see him stepping in where the agent has already knocked this woman down. And I don't condone that. I mean, that is totally wrong.

But as a person who's there to protest, observe, record, you want to not get involved. Even the guidelines the protest groups give you say you should stay five or six or seven feet away. Alex was in the heat of the moment and he didn't do that. And I wish he had.

Amna Nawaz:

You mentioned the training that these federal agents have before they go. And I want to point out a slight distinction here. When we talked about the shooting and killing of Renee Good, that was by an ICE agent. This was -- it looks like it was a Border Patrol agent in the shooting and killing of Alex Pretti.

From what you know, are they trained to work in these kinds of environments, crowd control, urban policing?

Gil Kerlikowske:

Not at all.

Commander Bovino from the Border Patrol talked about how they have offices in some different cities like Buffalo. I was the police commissioner in Buffalo for five years. I never saw a Border Patrol agent in the city. So they don't have that kind of experience and background and training to work in an environment that can actually become a bit hostile.

And city police officers know how to handle those things. It's very obvious that ICE and the Border Patrol do not.

Amna Nawaz:

The other thing we have heard from the administration officials is this idea that Alex Pretti was someone who was intent on harming federal agents. They say he approached officers with a gun, intended to massacre law enforcement.

The DHS secretary said that officers were acting defensively in their actions. I know there's a lot of video we haven't seen yet, but have you seen any evidence of those claims in the videos that are circulating now?

Gil Kerlikowske:

I did not see any of that. The only thing I did see in his hand was a cell phone.

Amna Nawaz:

So, to follow on that, we know that there's body camera footage from the federal agents that investigators are looking into, reportedly. There's also the phone that Alex Pretti himself seemed to be recording on. What do you think we can learn from those additional camera angles?

Gil Kerlikowske:

Well, body cameras have become very popular, and for a number of years.

And when I was at Customs and Border Protection, we experimented and the Border Patrol agents were keen to use them. The problem was, at that time, the technology did not hold up well in the environment that they worked in. But they said, look, this body camera will protect me more. It will show that what I did is lawful and restrained.

And now the administration doesn't want to use body cameras.

Amna Nawaz:

Can I ask big picture here? Because you mentioned these are not agents who are trained in the environment in which they're currently operating.

Two American citizens have now been killed by those federal agents in Minnesota. What do you think needs to happen so there's not a third citizen killed?

Gil Kerlikowske:

Well, one, the Border Patrol is clearly the wrong tool to be leading this effort, to be working in an urban environment.

And, frankly, the ICE section, the removal section, ERO, they were pretty good at being able to target people who were dangerous, target people with final orders of deportation and make those arrests. This walking through Walmart and Home Depot lot makes little sense.

And all Iran really does is, one, cause chaos, but you've also pretty much eroded the trust that law enforcement has gained in the last five years after the murder of George Floyd.

Amna Nawaz:

That is the former Customs and Border Protection Commissioner Gil Kerlikowske joining us tonight.

Thank you so much for your time.

Gil Kerlikowske:

Thank you.