Brooks and Atkins Stohr on the end of the shutdown and affordability concerns

Amna Nawaz:

It's been another busy week in Washington that saw the end of the longest government shut down in U.S. history and new developments regarding the Jeffrey Epstein files.

To discuss, we turn now to the analysis of Brooks and Atkins Stohr. That is David Brooks of The New York Times and Kimberly Atkins Stohr at The Boston Globe. Jonathan Capehart is away.

Great to see you both.

Kimberly Atkins Stohr, The Boston Globe:

Good to see you.

Amna Nawaz:

So the longest government shutdown in U.S. history is now over. It took seven Democrats and one independent to break with the Democratic Party in the Senate. Six Democrats broke in the House.

The deal that they got, David, does not include the extension of the ACA health care subsidies, which was their reason for shutting down the government in the first place. There's an argument here, though, that Democrats changed the conversation. We're now talking about the subsidies. We're talking about affordability.

Did they win the war and lose the battle? How do you look at this?

David Brooks:

That's spinning that. We changed the conversation. Congratulations.

I would say I have a few lessons I have learned that I would have hoped that political parties, primarily the Democrats, but also the Republicans, have learned. First, don't pass cynical laws. When the Democrats had control of the White House, the House, and the Senate in 2021, they passed these subsidies.

If they really believe in the subsidies, don't make them go away in five years. Make them permanent and be honest with the American people about what it's going to cost, so that — and that and both parties do this sunsetting thing. And so it was cynical of them to do it and they're paying — the people they're trying to help are paying the price because of that.

Second, if you lose an election and the other party does something you don't like, don't shut down the government. Go to the voters and go to the midterm and say, these Republican policies are terrible. Trust the voters. Don't shut down the government.

Third, don't shut down the government when you're not holding the White House, because, in these shutdowns, the president has the power to choose where the remaining money is going to go, and he picks his priorities and make your people suffer.

Fourth, or whatever number I'm up to, don't shut the government when your party is divided and they're united. You're going to lose. And they did lose.

And so I just think the Democrats shouldn't have done it. Chuck Schumer knew they shouldn't have done it. But the people in the party wanted to do something, so he did it and it didn't look very good.

Amna Nawaz:

Kimberly?

Kimberly Atkins Stohr:

When — yes, when there is a situation when the White House and both houses of Congress are governed by one party, and they are diametrically opposed on things like affordability of health care, the Democrats had a moment and for a while they were doing it.

They were fighting. This is what their base and other Americans have been wanting for a long time. And it was a righteous fight. And by giving up, they not only disappoint their base, but it makes people throw their hands up at government again and feel like they are not working for them.

I was in Dallas last weekend visiting families, and I struck up some conversations with people who have different ideological leanings in me. And what everyone expressed was frustration, frustration that the folks back in Washington are fighting with each other while people cannot afford their health care.

They brought up health care in Texas, which I thought was important. Things are not affordable. They're having difficulty just getting by. Businesses are suffering under the tariffs, and they just want people to work and get it right. And if a shutdown was a way to get there, at least that would lead to some outcome.

By taking away the very thing that Democrats were fighting for, walking away before they got it, it let a lot of Americans down.

Amna Nawaz:

The concerns about Chuck Schumer as leader, those have merit?

Kimberly Atkins Stohr:

You know, I think I'm always in favor of change of leadership and that people should not be tenured at the leadership in the levels of the House and the Senate. So I think any time we're talking about reevaluating what the leadership looks like, that's a positive thing.

Amna Nawaz:

We are now talking about affordability in a way that was not part of the discourse before. The president is now talking about affordability more as well. He shifted his rhetoric in recent days to meet the concern, just today slashed tariffs on a number of key food items, things like coffee and bananas and beef and so on.

And in a recent poll, about 30 percent of voters say that President Trump has lived up to expectations for tackling inflation and the cost of living.

Here's what President Trump had to say when he was asked about it on FOX recently.

Laura Ingraham, FOX News Anchor:

Why are people saying they're anxious about the economy? Why are they saying that?

Donald Trump:

I don't know that they are saying — I think polls are fake. We have the greatest economy we have ever had.

Amna Nawaz:

David, it is an issue for Americans. What do you make of the president's rhetoric on this?

David Brooks:

Well, on one level, he's sort of right. Inflation is at 3 percent, which is not terrible. Egg prices are down since he was elected. Unemployment rate is still low.

But then you look at consumer sentiment, it's through the floor. It's unbelievable how low consumer sentiment is. And so you got to listen to the American people. They know what they're talking about. And I think it is affordable — and it's affordability on two big issues.

One is health care and the other is housing. I saw a Bloomberg graph today that showed that, in 2010, 25 years ago — no, my math is wrong — 15 years ago.

(Laughter)

David Brooks:

The median house purchaser was 39 years old. So that means a lot of people in their 30s were buying houses. Now, in 2025, the median house purchaser is 59 years old.

So young people can't afford houses. So that's a gigantic problem if you're a young person who wants to have a family and have a life. And so these issues, all the stuff Trump is doing, trivial, trivial. You have got to do the big things, which are, A, rearrange the incentives in the health care system that allow all these costs to zoom up and have for basically our lifetimes.

Two, on housing, we have a housing problem because, especially in blue states over the last generation or two, we have put in law and rules and lawsuits to make it really hard to build housing. So supply and demand, guess what, it's a thing. And so if somebody would take big actions on these two big issues, you would have a serious conversation about affordability.

But giving people a few checks or reducing a few tariffs, I'm glad they made the Swiss deal. My chocolate bill will go down, but we're not talking about the real issues that are out there, which are real. The affordability issues are real.

Amna Nawaz:

What do you make of this affordability conversation, Kimberly, and also the idea that there's another budget battle ahead in January?

Kimberly Atkins Stohr:

Yes. Yes.

Amna Nawaz:

Should Democrats shut the government down again if there is no movement on those health care subsidies?

Kimberly Atkins Stohr:

I think the Democrats need to show that there is a fight, but fight until the end, give it all they got, leave nothing on the court in this case.

Amna Nawaz:

What does that look like?

Kimberly Atkins Stohr:

Whatever levers they have, right, and make the case clearly to the American people that you are fighting for them.

Look, they can't keep trying and doing this and failing the American people and expect the American people to keep coming back to them. You have the president who — I mean, these tariff breaks, that's all fine and good, but it's like pouring a thimble full of water on a bonfire. It's not going to make a difference.

And the indices may not be showing inflation rising, but you know what is showing? The receipts of Americans when they go to the grocery store, myself included. It's appalling. And we're coming into the holidays too. Democrats need to fight with everything that they have. They need to show that they understand Americans and they're not just looking to save themselves in the next election.

Amna Nawaz:

Why are you laughing, David?

David Brooks:

Kimberly is hitting one of my triggers.

(Crosstalk)

(Laughter)

David Brooks:

And it's over the word fight.

Amna Nawaz:

OK.

David Brooks:

I don't think democrats fight. I mean small-D democrats. I think democrats persuade.

We're still in a democracy where you try to persuade other people. And, to me, a lot of the fighting rhetoric is just riling up your base at higher levels of volume. And it's not very persuasive. And if you want to succeed in a democracy, persuade, don't fight.

Kimberly Atkins Stohr:

I agree with you, actually. And when I say fight, I don't mean fight each other. I mean, everyone, including the Texans I talked to, are tired of the partisan rancor in Washington.

I mean fight for the American people. It is their power who they lent to these lawmakers to work on their behalf and to hear things about affordability and how they're — we talk a lot about kitchen table. This is the kitchen table right now. And they were showing for a period of time that they cared about, that they understood in what was happening, what people were talking about at those tables.

By walking away like that, it's like they gave up that fight for Americans.

Amna Nawaz:

I have to ask you about the president continuing to face more pressure, more questions about the release of those files related to Jeffrey Epstein.

We saw four Republicans join House Democrats to back a petition to force a vote on releasing those files. We saw one of those Republican lawmakers, Colorado's Lauren Boebert, summoned to the White House, reportedly to talk about her push to release the files. And we have heard President Trump continue to try to convince Republicans to vote against the release.

He posted online today, saying: "Democrats are doing everything in their withering power to push the Epstein hoax again. Some weak Republicans have fallen into their clutches because they are soft and foolish."

David, what do you make of this? How is this going to end?

David Brooks:

Soon, I hope. I mean, I hate this issue.

This is the moment in my life, in my career, that I'm more uncertain about the future than any other time. It's A.I. It's economic bubbles. It's Ukraine. It's — I mean, there are a million things that are happening. And Congress comes back and they're doing Epstein?

I also hate this issue because look, I'm a journalist. We're journalists. When we report, we don't publicize everything somebody tells us. We check it out first. And I'm not a lawyer, like Kimberly is, but I think, prosecutorial power, that's like journalism times 100, because they can use the power of the state to get phone records, to get e-mails.

You don't just spew it out there without checking it out, whether it's part of some process where you need to prosecute people. And when I look at the content of these e-mails, most of it is just jibber-jabber. Trump broke with Epstein in 2004, and a lot of these e-mails are in 2019.

And so the one kernel that does raise alarms is when Epstein says that Trump was with one of the victims. That should be investigated. But the rest is just jibber-jabber, and I don't know why it's central.

Amna Nawaz:

Less than a minute.

Kimberly Atkins Stohr:

Donald Trump campaigned on releasing these files. A lot of this is in his hands. He's trying to have his cake and eat it too by saying that this is a Democratic hoax, while at the same time saying he wants his Justice Department to look into Democrats who are mentioned in these files.

He can't have it both ways. I agree with you. I hate this topic. I hate that his obstruction on it has caused it to end up in this dribble of news items and keep this going on in a way that I'm sure must be devastating to the victims.

Donald Trump is not a victim in this. There are real victims in it. And I'm thinking about them.

Amna Nawaz:

I regret to inform you we will probably be talking about this again at some point.

(Laughter)

Amna Nawaz:

Kimberly Atkins Stohr, David Brooks, great to see you both.

Kimberly Atkins Stohr:

Thank you.

David Brooks:

Good to see you.