Brooks and Capehart on the ouster of George Santos

Amna Nawaz:

Congressman George Santos' ouster marks an end to 11 turbulent months in the House of Representatives.

On that and the race for president heating up, we turn now to the analysis of Brooks and Capehart. That is New York Times columnist David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart, associate editor for The Washington Post.

Good to see you both.

Jonathan Capehart:

Good to see you, Amna.

Amna Nawaz:

So let's begin where Lisa's reporting left off there on Congressman Santos.

David, what do you make of how this process played out and the fact that he was eventually ousted from his job?

David Brooks:

He richly deserved it, and yet I'm sad.

(Laughter)

Amna Nawaz:

Why is that?

David Brooks:

I don't know. Somehow, he's such a character. Like, he's such a ridiculous character. Somehow, only 19th century names come to me. Like, he's a mountebank, a bounder, like all these words that you get from Trollope novels.

He's like one of those characters. And so he's a unique star that swept across our sky. And the only thing I — like, what was he thinking? That has never been answered. The only explanation I have ever heard was, he assumed he'd lose, so nobody would check into the way he spent the campaign money and nobody — but — and he ended up winning, and now his life is in turmoil, and he's left us with a little stain.

Amna Nawaz:

Jonathan, will you miss him?

Jonathan Capehart:

No. No, I'm not going to miss him, primarily because he shouldn't have been there in the first place.

This is a guy who ran for office, whose life — life story was literally unbelievable, as we discovered after he was elected. And after he was elected, we discovered that, according to someone down in Brazil, where he used to live, this person claimed — and George Santos' denied it — that he was a drag performer in Brazil, going by the name of Kitara Ravache.

So there is a very popular show on television called "RuPaul's Drag Race." It's about almost 20 years old. And there is a competition where the drag queens, the two remaining drag queens after these competitions, they have to lip sync for their life. Finally, finally, Congress and the Republicans asked Mr. Santos to sashay away.

(Laughter)

Amna Nawaz:

Wow. I got to say, I did not anticipate RuPaul coming up in this conversation.

(Laughter)

Amna Nawaz:

Ten points to Jonathan. Not a good week for Mr. Santos.

But Nikki Haley was having a really good week. Let's talk about her for a moment and the 2024 race. She received this coveted endorsement from a group that's financed by the Koch brothers. She's seeing a steady rise in some of the early state polling.

And she's really pitching herself, David, as an alternative to former President Trump. Here, in fact, is just part of her latest ad.

Nikki Haley (R), Presidential Candidate: It's time for a new generation of conservative leadership. We have to leave behind the chaos and drama of the past and strengthen our country, our pride and our purpose.

Amna Nawaz:

David, what do you make of Haley's recent rise?

David Brooks:

Well, she's good. She's just a good politician, if you watch her campaign.

And it's always best early in the campaign season just to see who — like, watching pitchers. Who knows how to throw a baseball? She's just good at it. She gives a good speech. She's strong when she needs to be. She's folksy when she needs to be. She does good retail politics. So that still matters.

And her rise has not been like a blip. It's been a long, slow, steady rise. So it's real. And the Koch thing was interesting, that they would endorse, because — or that he's pledged to support her, because her foreign policy is not their foreign policy. They're much — she's much more hawkish than they are on things like Ukraine.

And so she — even though in the ad she says she's a new generation, she really represents the older generation of Republicans, which was hawkish abroad and somewhat not as populist, not as anti-immigrant as the Trump Republican Party has turned out to be. So I will be curious to see if she can narrow that slim lead that Trump has of nearly — only 30 points in Iowa and "NewsHour".

Jonathan Capehart:

Yes.

(Laughter)

Amna Nawaz:

Which, Jonathan, brings me to you.

It's not close at this point. She is rising, but he still has a formidable lead. How do you look at this?

Jonathan Capehart:

Yes, she's rising vis-a-vis DeSantis. That's how she's rising. But when it comes to Donald Trump, she's not rising. She's not rising. Donald Trump's lead is yawning, if you really want to describe it that way.

The thing about Nikki Haley — and I agree with you. I don't agree with her on a whole lot of things, but I do agree that her rise has been steady. And she's been focused and determined in a way that folks thought you would — they would say that about Ron DeSantis.

But here's my issue with anyone in that race who isn't Donald Trump. And Robert Kagan gets at it in this fantastic op-ed, essay he does for The Washington Post, where he's saying that Trump dictatorship, the headline says, is inevitable.

And one of the things he says is that, right now, you have people saying they want to take down Trump. The Kochs have endorsed Nikki Haley. But once it becomes clear, if Donald Trump sews up the nomination, watch all of these people circle the wagons and do everything they can to get him elected.

And so I'm happy for her rise. It would be great if she could knock out Donald Trump. But I don't see what's gained, from my perspective, by either her doing that or him becoming the nominee.

Amna Nawaz:

Well, as you mentioned, her rise also highlights how far Governor DeSantis' campaign has fallen off.

He took the stage last night in Georgia to debate California Governor Gavin Newsom, who is not running for president. But here is just part of that debate as it played out last night.

Gov. Ron DeSantis (R-FL), Presidential Candidate: He has no business running for president. And Gavin Newsom agrees with that. He won't say that. That's why he's running his shadow campaign.

Gov. Gavin Newsom (D-CA):

But there's one thing, in closing, that we have in common, is neither of us will be the nominee for our party in 2024.

Amna Nawaz:

So, we should clarify. Governor DeSantis there was talking about President Biden at the top of that sound bite. That was, of course, aired on FOX, hosted by prime-time host Sean Hannity.

David, one of those men is running for president. One is not. Why would each of them participate in this debate?

David Brooks:

Because they're politicians. There are TV cameras there.

(Laughter)

David Brooks:

You don't really need to go any deeper. That's a pretty good explanation.

And I think they would like to conceive themselves as the leaders of two different governing models. And so the California model is obviously the progressive model. The Florida model is way more conservative. And I think they both see the other state as mismanaged, misgoverned.

And they both have a strong case to be made. And I think — and so I was hoping we'd get some sort of debate between the red and blue model. And the red model — again, Florida, people are actually flee — running to go to Florida, and people are running to go away from California. So it'd be an interesting debate to see why my model is better than your model.

That's not the tony debate we ended up getting. It just turned out to be more annoying interruptions mostly.

Amna Nawaz:

Do you think that it helped Mr. DeSantis in any way?

David Brooks:

No, I don't think so.

Amna Nawaz:

No?

David Brooks:

His pattern has been so longstanding. As I said, Nikki Haley is actually good at this. Ron DeSantis has some skills as a campaigner, but he's not good as — at being a politician.

Amna Nawaz:

Jonathan, when you look at this, is this effectively a shadow campaign Governor Newsom is running here?

Jonathan Capehart:

No.

Amna Nawaz:

No?

Jonathan Capehart:

Amna, no. No.

(Laughter)

Jonathan Capehart:

And this whole — the premise of this question — and I'm not picking on you, because a lot of people are saying this.

Governor Newsom is not running for president. He is not running a shadow presidency or a shadow candidacy. He is not doing that. But what Gavin Newsom is doing is what he has been doing for at least two years, which is taking the fight directly to Republicans.

This guy has been watching FOX News regularly for years now, and he just got tired of having Democrats be on the back foot, when they have got policies, when they have got accomplishments that they should be fighting for. So this isn't the first time that DeSantis and Newsom have gone head to head.

Remember, Governor Newsom bought billboards in Florida telling people, hey, they're banning your books and say don't say gay. Come to California, where we will welcome you with open arms.

I would say — when you say that Nikki Haley is very good at this, Nikki Haley is so good that at no point would she ever decide to debate someone who isn't even running for president. I think this was — Gavin Newsom had nothing to lose, everything to gain, and he doesn't need the stature boost. I think he did it for fun.

Governor DeSantis did it, I think, as a Hail Mary pass to save a campaign that is just inexorably sliding into irrelevance.

Amna Nawaz:

Do you think that Governor Newsom's appearance, though, helped the campaign of President Biden in any way?

Jonathan Capehart:

I do because, when — and I watched the debate.

Every — almost every — in every sentence, it was Biden/Harris, Biden/Harris, Biden/Harris, President Harris, Vice — President Biden, Vice President Harris. He made it clear in his answers: This is not about me. I am not running. This is about the president, the current president, and the current vice president, and why they deserve a second term.

Amna Nawaz:

Before we go, I want to get each of you to offer your takes on two incredible losses we featured on the program this week, both for the impact they left on the nation and on the world, one much more controversial than the other.

David, let's begin with Henry Kissinger, who undoubtedly reshaped global politics, also left millions of people dead in the wake of his policies. How are you looking at his legacy?

David Brooks:

Yes, I mean, it's important to remember he grew up as Germany was nazifying.

And I think, out of that, he grew this pessimistic sense that the crust of civilization is thin, and we have to do what we can to preserve order. And, sometimes, that worked out, the trip to China, and then the detente with the Soviets. But, as you indicated, in some cases, he was blind to human rights abuses, too much Machiavelli, too much realpolitik.

And so we see the downside of his career. I will say, for many years, I used to go to a breakfast, an annual breakfast, that was hosted by George Shultz, who was Reagan's secretary of state, and Henry Kissinger, who obviously preceded him in that role. They both lived to be 100.

And it could be a gloomy breakfast. They were not happy with the way America was going. But it was interesting to watch the two different kinds of intelligence. George Shultz's intelligence, he could take a complex situation and give you what you need to know in 30 seconds. He had a great summarizing ability.

Kissinger was just flat-out brilliant. He would come up with ideas you hadn't thought of. He had done reading that you hadn't done. And so, from everything from Machiavelli to Stalin to artificial intelligence, he was just insightful. And whatever one thinks of his policies, it was a mind. It was a great mind.

Amna Nawaz:

Jonathan, a very different legacy being weighed with the passing of Justice Sandra Day O'Connor. How are you looking at her life and its impact?

Jonathan Capehart:

Well, one, I mean, she was a historymaker, the first woman on the Supreme Court.

She was a conservative, but she was a moderate when it came to reproductive rights. She was the one who tapped the brakes on a lot of things that the court could have done. She's from — she's a different mold of the conservatives who are on the court now.

And I wonder, if she were coming up, would she even be considered to be on the court today? And given what we have seen, I doubt it.

Amna Nawaz:

Jonathan Capehart, David Brooks, always good to see you both. Thank you so much.

Jonathan Capehart:

You too, Amna.

David Brooks:

Thank you.