Brooks and Capehart on the political pressure of the overwhelmed immigration system

Amna Nawaz:

An overwhelmed immigration system, a court ruling to keep Donald Trump off the ballot, and new details about his efforts to overturn the last election.

To discuss it all, we turn now to the analysis of Brooks and Capehart. That is New York Times columnist David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart, associate editor for The Washington Post.

Good to see you both.

Jonathan Capehart:

You too, Amna.

David Brooks:

Good to see you.

Amna Nawaz:

So we are seeing record daily encounters at the U.S. Southern border once again. The Senate went home without a deal of border policy wrapped up with foreign aid funding.

In the meantime, immigration as an issue, as a concern for Americans, has been rising. In some recent polling by Gallup, you see, when people are asked what they think the most important problem the country is facing right now, the top one is government and poor leadership at 19 percent. Immigration a second at 15 percent, followed by the economy and inflation.

Jonathan, the negotiators from the Senate who went home still have a chance to continue talking. Do you see them getting anything done?

Jonathan Capehart:

In the spirit of Christmas, I want to say yes, but by the time they get something done, Christmas will have come and gone.

And so, look, this much, I know. They are trying. They are trying very hard. This much, I also know. If they do indeed come up with a deal, it's going to be a deal that folks in the far right are going to hate, because it doesn't go far enough from their perspective, and those on the left and within the Democratic Party, their hair is going to be on fire, because it probably will go too far.

But because it is attached to aid to Ukraine and Israel and Taiwan, the imperative to getting this done is so high that I think the negotiators are going to come up with a bill that is going to require a lot of people on both sides of the aisle to swallow a bitter pill if they want to get this done.

Amna Nawaz:

You agree with that?

David Brooks:

Yes, I think we're closer to some sort of bipartisan immigration bill than we have been since the Bush administration.

Just a lot of people have a lot they need from this bill. The Biden administration is now just way behind on immigration. Biden was slightly behind immigration in 2020. Now he's like 30 points behind. Among immigrants themselves, people who personally came over to this country, Biden had a 20-point lead. Among immigrants now, now it's even with Trump.

And so the political pressure is just awesome. And then you look at Chuck Schumer and Mitch McConnell, Kyrsten Sinema. Everyone is sort of saying the right things. And, of course, the details are the details, the immigration issue being what it is.

But I just think so many different constituencies get something out of this that I think it's, I don't know more likely than not, but more than we have seen in decades.

Amna Nawaz:

The cynical view here is, the longer it's a problem, the more Republicans can leverage it and say it's Biden's problem and not want to fix it. Do you see any truth to that?

David Brooks:

Yes. Well, obviously, there's some truth to having an issue.

But I think, for Kyrsten Sinema, people like that, if you look at the individual senators or the individual House members, and you look at how people are reacting on the border where they go to the grocery store and there's no food because they have been swamped, they can't get in the yard, like, people are having real difficulties on the border in these towns that are overwhelmed, to me, those people are not looking for an issue.

Those are looking for some help.

Jonathan Capehart:

And I agree with you on that.

But let's talk about an even more cynical view. And that is Republican governors sending migrants from their states to Northern cities, to cities that are run by Democratic mayors, and thus using immigrants and using human beings for political purposes, using them as pawns in their political games.

And I think that's also why we see concern about immigration rising up to the top, including in places like New York City, which Republicans like to deride it as, well, you're a sanctuary city, well, you should take care of this.

But in order for those things to work, things need to work at the border. And so this is a problem that is not one of President Biden's making. To your point, this is something — we haven't been this close to an immigration deal since President George W. Bush, the Republican, but this is something that has bedeviled both Republican and Democratic presidents, simply because the incentives have not really been there to do anything about it.

Amna Nawaz:

And we cannot say enough nothing changes substantially at the border until Congress acts.

Jonathan Capehart:

Right.

Amna Nawaz:

We have to underscore that too.

Meanwhile, all of these forces have allowed former President Trump to really double down on a lot of the anti-immigrant messaging. He has been employing, he's been echoing Nazi propaganda by repeatedly saying immigrants are — quote — "poisoning the blood of our country."

We have got just over three weeks to go before the Iowa caucuses. And I need to point out that that language is actually resonating among likely GOP caucus-goers. Take a look at this latest poll from The Des Moines Register and NBC in Iowa. They found 42 percent say those comments actually make them more likely to vote for former President Trump.

Jonathan, what do you make of that?

Jonathan Capehart:

I'm not surprised by that at all.

It takes me back to the 2016 campaign, when there were a lot of stories that quoted people who went to his rallies: Why do you like Donald Trump? He says what we're all thinking. He says what I can't say.

And left me to wonder, well, what can't you say? He's called Mexicans rapists. He's called for a Muslim ban. This was during his campaign. He's been — he was president for four years. So we know what his thinking is. And in these rallies where he talks about immigrants, he's talking about poisoning the blood of our country, and he spells out they're coming from Africa, they're coming from Asia, they're coming from South America.

What he doesn't say is, they're coming from Europe. For him, immigrants are people who come from anywhere that's basically Black or brown. And let's not forget what he said when he was president of the United States, how he derided immigrants from country from — quote, unquote — "S-hole countries."

So we know what his viewpoint is. And so the fact that he is using this — the — I was about to say this Hitleresque language, we should take that very seriously. He's saying it over and over and over again. And it is terrible for political discourse. It is terrible for a country that is built by immigrants and enslaved labor.

Amna Nawaz:

David.

David Brooks:

Yes, I mean, I thought the comments were abhorrent and horrible. And Donald Trump has a talent for tapping into some of the darker underground rivers of American history, America first, nativism, Know Nothing-ism. And this is an example.

But we shouldn't ignore the fact — the statistic I said a couple of minutes ago, which is that his support among immigrants themselves is surging. And so there's an actual issue here. And so, in my view, anytime he talks about immigrants, he's probably going to get — you're going to get that 42 percent number.

And then you got to remember 42 percent, at least, of Iowan Republican Caucus-goers are Trump supporters. So they're going to be pro-Trump, no matter what, when a reporter comes up. So, A, I think it's abhorrent. But we shouldn't reduce the whole issue to those abhorrent comments, those Nazi-like comments, that there actually is a core problem here that people are really resonating with.

Amna Nawaz:

I do want to get you both to weigh in on the issue out of Colorado as well, the Supreme Court there weighing in and basically saying Mr. Trump is not eligible to appear on their primary ballot, citing the Insurrection Clause of the 14th Amendment.

We know there's similar legal efforts under way in a number of states. So this is likely headed for the Supreme Court.

But, Jonathan, is this an issue that you think the courts should be deciding or the voters?

Jonathan Capehart:

Yes.

(Laughter)

Jonathan Capehart:

Yes.

In the short term, yes, I think this is an issue that the voters should decide, because, one, the guy is at least right now leading in the polls. He is on his way, quite possibly, to become the next Republican nominee. And we're less than a year out. So the voters should have a say in this.

At the same time, I say, yes, that the courts should have a say, because this is a question that has not been tested yet. And I don't think, even though the framers foresaw a Trump-like character coming — coming — at least trying to come into power in American politics, that person has never tested the system the way Donald Trump has.

The system has never been required to answer the question until now. And so I think, just for the good of the country, let's have this conversation. These two things can happen at the same time.

Amna Nawaz:

You agree with that, David?

David Brooks:

No.

(Laughter)

Amna Nawaz:

No.

David Brooks:

No.

Amna Nawaz:

What should happen here?

David Brooks:

Yes.

Well, why is Donald Trump, why did he become president? Why are there populist movements across every Western country? It's because a lot of people in a lot of these countries, me included, think a highly educated cohort of, in this case Americans, have created a hereditary meritocratic class. They have too — they have a lot of education. They now have a lot of cultural power. They control the media. They control the universities. They increasingly control the courts.

And a lot of Americans say they have too much power. We're going to be populists. We're going to have an uprising. And then you have a series of judges with their Ivy League law degrees who come in and say, sorry, we're taking your guy off the ballot? That would explode this country and, in my view, explode it under the most dubious possible circumstances, for kicking off for the Insurrection Act.

Has he been convicted of the — of offending the Insurrection Act? Has he been even charged with violating the Insurrection Act? No. And so, to me, it would look like and I think would be just an elite power grab to deny people their democratic rights. I assume the Supreme Court will throw this out anyway. But that's my view.

Amna Nawaz:

And we should point out there's divergence among opinions, even for those who don't believe that he should not be president, he's unfit to be president. So I'm sure it's something we're going to continue to cover.

You have a quick point to make? Yes, please.

Jonathan Capehart:

Yes. Yes, the quick point, let's remember that the Colorado case has been brought by Republicans. Just make that clear.

Amna Nawaz:

Worth noting. Thank you for that.

Look, we are heading into Christmas weekend, and you both dig into some of the toughest issues of our time, which we so appreciate, every week, but it is the season of peace, goodwill towards men and women, also the season of hope.

I need to ask you both, what is it that gives you hope in this moment?

Jonathan Capehart:

Oh, I was going to go to David first. But I…

(Laughter)

Jonathan Capehart:

No.

For me — and I mean this in all sincerity — the American electorate give me hope. I know that there's some folks who don't — who might not agree with that, but the American electorate in 2022, during the midterm elections, they showed us that they are nuanced and sophisticated and can walk and chew gum at the same time.

They might not like the economy, but they don't like what Republicans had in store for the country and they blunted the red wave. It is my sincere hope that the American electorate one year from now will have saved American democracy, will have saved the idea of democracy for the rest of the world. That is my hope.

Amna Nawaz:

David.

David Brooks:

Candy canes, dancing Santas.

(Laughter)

David Brooks:

You know the dancing Santa in the Target, the — how can you not be hopeful when you got, like, Santas swinging their hips around?

So I'm just filled with ecstatic exuberance.

(Laughter)

Amna Nawaz:

I did not think this was going to end with you imitating a dancing Santa. For that, I am grateful.

David Brooks, Jonathan Capehart, thank you so much.

Jonathan Capehart:

Thanks, Amna.