Capehart and Abernathy on the backlash against Trump's immigration operation

Amna Nawaz:

For more on the political fallout from a hectic week in Minneapolis and in Washington, we turn tonight to the analysis of Capehart and Abernathy.

That's Jonathan Capehart of MS NOW and Gary Abernathy, author and editor of the Abernathy Road newsletter on Substack. David Brooks is away this week.

Gary, it's great to have you with us. Jonathan, good to see you here.

We need to start in Minnesota, because a lot happened in this last week. There seems to be a consensus that something shifted after the killing of two U.S. citizens by federal agents. And FOX's latest poll reflects that. Take a look at these numbers.

When asked about ICE, whether they were too aggressive, about right or not aggressive enough, 59 percent of Americans said they were too aggressive; 24 percent said about right; 17 percent said they're not being aggressive enough.

So, Jonathan, let's just start with that.

Is there agreement that ICE, that the president's immigration crackdown have gone too far?

Jonathan Capehart:

When it comes to the ICE enforcement yes. You cannot have the killing of two U.S. citizens by federal agents and then have the administration lie about what happened, and then continue to lie about what happened, despite multiple videos, recordings coming out showing each incident from multiple angles, and think that that's going to fly with the American people.

And this is an incident, particularly the shooting of Alex Pretti -- gosh, was that last week?

Amna Nawaz:

That was last week.

Jonathan Capehart:

Just last week -- broke through in ways that people have been commenting on -- folks who don't even pay attention to politics. It's broken through to them.

And this 59 percent too aggressive does not surprise me. But I have also seen -- and I want to make this distinction, because I do think the American people make a distinction between ICE enforcement and securing the border. And those are two separate things.

And the American people, in the polls, you will see they're all for securing the border, do what's necessary to secure the border. But when it comes to federal agents roaming through American cities, roughing up U.S. citizens and others, and in the case of Renee Good and Alex Pretti, killing them, that's too far.

Amna Nawaz:

Gary, what about you? Do you agree with the majority in this poll here that ICE has been too aggressive? What's your take?

Gary Abernathy, Freelance Journalist:

I'm sure that that's what they have been hearing. That's what -- that's kind of the media narrative about it.

But let's remember why there's a lot of ICE enforcement going on in Minnesota and in Minneapolis in particular, because people are led to believe that these sanctuary cities are a real thing. And I'm not -- they're not a real thing.

By the way, it's good to be back with you and Jonathan tonight.

Sanctuary cities, there's no sanctuary for being in the country illegally. Federal agents are allowed to come in and do their job and enforce the law. The only thing sanctuary cities does is, it allows local leaders not to cooperate with them, with the law enforcement, not to -- they can tell law enforcement, we're not going to cooperate with them.

And when that happens -- and I thought Tom Homan did a really good job yesterday of laying this out -- when that happens, it requires ICE, Border Patrol, federal agents to also then do law enforcement and to do crowd control. And these are not things that they're good at.

And, to me -- and I know people look at this so differently whether you're kind of from the left or whether you're more conservative, as I am. I look at this and I say, why is Governor Walz and Mayor Frey, why are they encouraging people to come out and confront law enforcement and to confront ICE agents, to confront federal agents?

You know, we were told back on January 6, 2021, how horrible it was that officers, that law enforcement had been attacked on that day of that riot. And I agree with that. I'm with you on that. But I'm also with you on it now. I'm saying it's terrible to confront these folks who are just trying to do their jobs to enforce the law that Congress passed.

And we need governors and mayors to encourage citizens, stay out of the way while they do this enforcement. Don't put yourself in harm's way.

Amna Nawaz:

Jonathan?

Jonathan Capehart:

Tell that to Chongly Thao, U.S. citizen who everyone has seen the picture of him being hauled out of his home by federal agents clad in just boxer shorts and Crocs and a blanket thrown over his shoulder.

Tell that to the -- I can't remember the name of the young woman who had federal agents surround her car. And all she was trying to do was to get out of the way so she could get to a doctor's appointment, and had her window broken, forcibly removed from her car, cut -- the seat belt cut away and hauled off by her arms and legs by federal agents.

Look, the governor and the mayor are concerned about the people who live in their state and the people who live in their city. I'm coming at this as an American. There is no way you can expect people to see their friends, their neighbors, their co-workers, maybe even people they don't know, but who live around them, being abused, treated roughly by a government that folks are paying taxes to pay for.

You're going to expect them to stay home and not exercise their First Amendment right to be, one, constitutional observers? Because that's what the folks in Minneapolis are doing when they're recording what's happening. They are making sure that people's rights aren't violated, even though they are right there on recordings.

They're there standing at bus stops. They're there standing in front of restaurants ensuring that their neighbors can at least have some semblance of safety. The level of siege that is felt by the people in Minneapolis, and not just Minneapolis, down in Northfield, Minnesota, where my alma mater is. ICE has been roaming around the town.

The level of fear that is out there cannot be underestimated and cannot be discounted. And I think that the governor and the mayor when they're telling people to exercise their First Amendment rights to protest and have their voices be heard, they are also saying in the same voice, do so peacefully.

We saw it today in Minneapolis, when thousands of people took to the streets and in really cold temperatures in Minneapolis to make their voices heard. We saw it last Friday when thousands of people took to the streets of Minneapolis to make their voices heard.

Amna Nawaz:

Gary, what about this idea that we are hearing from some Republican lawmakers as well that it's time for a reset? That's the language I have heard from some Republican senators, right?

Gary Abernathy:

Yes.

Amna Nawaz:

That the mission was supposed to be targeting the worst of the worst. That's what they want to see happen.

Gary Abernathy:

Yes.

Amna Nawaz:

That's not what's been happening. What do you make of that?

Gary Abernathy:

Well, it is what's been happening.

And that's what Tom Homan came in and said yesterday. This is what's happening. But illegal immigrants are not going to be off the hook. Donald Trump was elected with a mandate to do what he's doing. But let's be clear. Let's be clear about protest. It's not peaceful protesting to be pushing police barricades back.

It's not peaceful protesting to be throwing rocks and ICE and fireworks at officers. It's not peaceful protest to drive your car in the middle of the street and block traffic or to confront officers as they're doing their job in their face with cell phones, provoking them and trying to get a reaction out of them.

This is not peaceful protesting. This is dangerous behavior. And, yes, I know that there are always sad cases that can be pointed to, but people should also go to the DHS Web site and look up the list of the violent murderers, child rapists, and so on that are being taken off the street.

This is the job that federal law enforcement officers are supposed to be doing.

Amna Nawaz:

Gary, can I ask, does the president acknowledging even calling for de-escalation, whether or not we see that on the ground, but the president acknowledging he reached out to Governor Walz, they spoke, he mentioned de-escalation and now backing a compromise deal when it comes to this funding deal, right?

It stalled the Senate, but it looks like it will pass. Does that say to you that the president himself acknowledged something needed to shift?

Gary Abernathy:

Oh, I think so, yes.

And isn't it interesting? We don't usually talk about Donald Trump as the guy being the voice of reason in any given stretch of time. And yet I would say, this week, he really has. I have been proud of him. I'm often very, very critical of the way Donald Trump goes about doing things, even when I support what he's trying to accomplish.

But while you have got Tim Walz and Jacob Frey and others, I think just being -- they represent the height of irresponsibility, Trump has actually been trying to lower the temperature and move the ball forward a little bit.

Even when people are coming back at him and criticizing them, even in Davos a few days ago, he was complimentary of Governor Newsom, who was there ripping on Trump. So I don't know what's going on. I'm sure this will change very quickly, but, yes, Amna, I do think that President Trump realizes -- he's a master at understanding public opinion and he can read the tea leaves.

He knows when the winds have shifted a little bit and he's very good at resetting things. And I do think he's trying to do that a little bit.

Amna Nawaz:

Well, I will say we haven't seen the action on the ground match the rhetoric just yet, but he has shifted in terms of what he is saying.

Gary Abernathy:

Well, but Tom Homan said the action will happen when the cooperation begins, right?

I mean, there's not going to be a reset until the Minnesota and Minneapolis officials begin to cooperate with ICE.

Jonathan Capehart:

You know, yes, sure, the president is a master of whatever it is that Gary just said.

He is a master of saying what he needs to say in the moment. This is the same person, President Trump, who just overnight or early this morning called Alex Pretti a -- quote, unquote -- "insurrectionist." So the idea that the president is lowering the temperature is -- it's not a thing.

And also the idea of going to the DHS Web site to look at the folks who they have arrested to say that these are the worst of the worst, tell that to the school officials who had to watch 5-year-old Liam Ramos be used as bait for his father.

Gary Abernathy:

That's not true.

Jonathan Capehart:

And then -- I'm sorry, Gary -- and then have them both shipped off to a prison camp in Texas.

How are they the worst of the worst? How is Liam the worst of the worst, when his own mother was inside and other relatives were inside saying, please let him stay?

Amna Nawaz:

Gary, this has gotten a lot of attention. I will give you a chance to respond. What do you make of that case?

Gary Abernathy:

No, that's OK, but we know there's a different story about the 5-year-old. We know that that narrative is not true, that what the officials say is that the father actually abandoned that child and the officer took -- was taking care of that child, making sure he was safe, not running into traffic or anything.

(Crosstalk)

Amna Nawaz:

Well, we do know the child is now in federal custody with his father at the detention center. Please continue.

Gary Abernathy:

Yes, right, right, with his father.

If he was separated, they'd be complaining that he separated from his family. So he's with his father.

Amna Nawaz:

We have just a few seconds left, gentlemen, and I want to get you take very quickly on this, but there's also the arrest of journalists that we saw just in the last couple of days.

And press freedom groups have obviously spoken out about it. There's very little time left.

But, Jonathan, very quickly, how worrying a signal is that for you?

Jonathan Capehart:

Oh, this is very worrying.

I'd like to remind people that there's only one profession that is protected in the Constitution of the United States, and that is a free press. And that is because the founders understood that, for a democracy to survive, it needs to have an informed citizenry, and that informed citizenry gets its information from a free -- from journalists who are able to report without fear or favor.

And, right now, the president has tried to inject some fear into journalists, but he will not succeed in stopping journalists from doing their jobs.

Amna Nawaz:

Gary, I apologize. Just 20 or 30 seconds left, but I will give you the last word, please.

Gary Abernathy:

That's OK. Very quickly -- I can do it very quickly, because I think Don Lemon quit being a journalist a long time ago. He became an activist. He became a political activist.

He's on the scene basically participating in the invasion or in the incursion into that church...

Jonathan Capehart:

That's not true.

Gary Abernathy:

... which is also a First Amendment issue.

Amna Nawaz:

Gary Abernathy, Jonathan Capehart, lots more to talk about. We hope to have you back again soon. Thank you so much.

Gary Abernathy:

Thank you very much.