Capehart and Gorman on Democrats’ election wins and Trump’s push to end the filibuster

Amna Nawaz:

Negotiations to reopen the federal government teetered this week as the shutdown became the longest in U.S. history. In the meantime, Tuesday's elections brought resounding wins for Democrats across several states.

For analysis of all this and more, we turn now to Capehart and Gorman. That is Jonathan Capehart of MSNBC and Republican strategist Matt Gorman. David Brooks is away.

Good to see you both. Thanks for joining us.

Jonathan Capehart:

Thanks, Amna.

Matt Gorman, Republican Strategist:

Good to see you.

Amna Nawaz:

All right, let's start off with some of the takeaways from those elections.

We heard President Trump earlier this week articulate the concern, Jonathan, that this party lost some of those key elections because they're being blamed for the shutdown. Democrats, meanwhile, riding this wave of wins. Do you feel like both sides are taking away the right message? Should Democrats dig in right now?

Jonathan Capehart:

I don't know if they should dig in. I understand the impulse to do that. Maybe dig in because the president's out there saying out loud, much to Republicans' consternation, the shutdown's hurting us, affordability, a lot of things that the Republicans did not talk about in these elections running up.

I do think that Republican — I don't understand why Republicans — and I'm thinking of Senator — Senate Majority Leader John Thune — why they are not working really hard, sitting down with Chuck Schumer, the minority leader, calling in Jeffries, calling in the president and saying, hey, let's get this done, because it hurt us on Tuesday.

But, more importantly, it's hurting the American people right now in real time.

Amna Nawaz:

Matt, should Republicans be doing that, especially after what was we saw in the election?

Matt Gorman:

Yes, when I first saw him, President Trump, talk up the shutdown as the reason for this, I immediately clocked it as it was — there was bread crumbs, so to speak, before even the results came out that he was preparing to really pressure Republicans on the filibuster.

There was a story in Axios came out about 6:00 on election night saying that he was going to hold Republicans to account to pressure them to undo the filibuster.

Amna Nawaz:

Right.

Matt Gorman:

And I saw that as an extension of the strategy.

I don't — by the exit polling, it doesn't seem to shutdown, in and of itself, as opposed to, say, the economy…

Jonathan Capehart:

Right.

Matt Gorman:

… was really what the cause of Tuesday night was.

Amna Nawaz:

Yes.

Matt Gorman:

But it was a way for him to advance that.

Now, certainly, as we see now with airlines, it's about to get real for a broader swathe of the American public than before…

Amna Nawaz:

Yes.

Matt Gorman:

… not just folks on SNAP and not just folks who have insurance on the exchanges.

Amna Nawaz:

So, Jonathan, to that point, we reported earlier 1,000 flights canceled so far, right? The last longest shutdown that we had, it was air traffic and those disruptions that were the pressure point that brought it to a close.

Do you feel like the same thing could happen this time?

Jonathan Capehart:

I mean, maybe, but I think there are several pressure points. And I'm one of those people who has been affected by a canceled flight.

(Laughter)

Jonathan Capehart:

I might have another canceled flight. Might have to jump a train. And nothing wrong with the train.

But it could be — it could be a pressure point, but I do think Republicans, there are multiple pressure points here that precede the air traffic controllers. The exchanges, they opened up, the health care exchanges. Folks are finding out right now how much their health premiums are going to shoot through the roof at the beginning of the year.

There's the SNAP benefits issue, which the administration — thankfully, apparently, just before we went on air, a federal judge said, no, you — Mr. President, we are not going to hear your case.

Amna Nawaz:

Right.

Jonathan Capehart:

The lower court ruling stands.

And it just — to me, it seems like there is a — there's a meanness and a in a cruelty here when you put all of these things together, using the shutdown, using these things to pressure Democrats to come to the table and come up with a deal.

But, again, I would argue the president should call in all the leaders, lock them in a room and say, what are we going to do? And I think that Thune — correct me if I'm wrong, Matt — that maybe that's something that Thune and Speaker Johnson don't want to have happen, because the president probably would make a deal with Schumer and Jeffries, particularly on health care.

Amna Nawaz:

Matt, how do you look at that?

Matt Gorman:

I think both leaders on the Republican side are very leery of any preconditions to opening the government beforehand.

I think we saw this back when I was at the NRCC in 2013 when Ted Cruz shut down the government over Obamacare. Obama had this thing, we will not hold hostage reopening the government. And I think Republicans now on the other side of this have held that same standard, because there will inevitably be another C.R., whether it's January, whether it's December, whether it's next year.

And setting down this path of now we can negotiate what we need to do to just simply keep the government open is a very, very tough path to hoe.

Amna Nawaz:

So if Democrats are offering now a one-year extension on those health care subsidies they have been asking for, you would not advise Republican leaders to take that deal? Is that what you're saying?

Matt Gorman:

It's a total nonstarter because we're right back into this right before the midterm elections next year. And I think many Republicans see a lot of danger in having that sort of thing happen. And even Leader Jeffries said on the other end that was a nonstarter as well.

Amna Nawaz:

So, in that case, I have to ask, where's the off-ramp?

(Laughter)

Matt Gorman:

That's where this comes down to. There has to be some magical path, I don't know what it is yet, where Schumer and Democrats can go to their base and say, hey, look, we got a pound of flesh, but and the White House, Republicans say, hey, we didn't cave either.

That is a mystical tightrope to walk.

Jonathan Capehart:

Indeed.

(Laughter)

Amna Nawaz:

Mystical and magical.

Jonathan Capehart:

I see you want to move on to another topic.

Amna Nawaz:

If we're waiting on magic, I'm not sure how long we're going to be waiting.

I do want to ask you about something else this week which is big news in Congress.

Jonathan Capehart:

Yes.

Amna Nawaz:

And that was Nancy Pelosi announcing that she is not going to run for reelection. This is talking about a woman 85 years old now who has been a force for four decades on Capitol Hill.

Among the reactions, though, I have to say to her announcement was this from New York Times columnist Michelle Goldberg, who wrote — quote — "She's right to retire now, setting an example for a party with a serious gerontocracy problem."

Jonathan, what do you make of that? Should more Democrats follow her lead?

Jonathan Capehart:

I will leave it to them. Sure, there are a lot of old people in Congress. There are a lot of old people in Congress on both sides of the aisle.

Whenever folks are talking about the gerontocracy problem, I wonder, are they talking about the fact that they're old or is it cover for they're not — they're old and they're not pushing the — the ideas to move the party forward?

I don't hear anyone demanding that Senator Bernie Sanders quit the Senate. No one's talking about him quitting the Senate. But he and Nancy Pelosi are on opposite sides of a whole lot of issues. So whether Senator Schumer should retire or other people should retire, I leave it to them. But we're talking about the retirement of Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi.

I have interviewed her several times. We have all probably interviewed her many times. She is indefatigable. She is constantly working, constantly fund-raising for Democrats, constantly trying to hold the line, whether it was President Trump or trying to get the president's agenda through when it was President Obama, passing Obamacare without a single Republican vote. And she was very proud of that.

And whenever I asked her any question about counting votes, she would always go to that, I passed Affordable Care Act without a single Republican vote.

She is consequential. So whether other old people in the Senate should retire or in Congress should retire, whatever. Nancy Pelosi deserves her due.

Matt Gorman:

She also was very notable in pushing another old Democrat out in Joe Biden last summer. It was — when that was starting to abate a little bit, you think maybe Joe Biden can get through this terrible debate and the weeks aftermath, she went on "Morning Joe" almost out of nowhere and really stuck the proverbial knife in his political career.

And — but she's been effective for both parties, look, certainly, with Jonathan, for Democrats, a ton of accomplishments of all the 25 years of legislative accomplishments for them, but, candidly, for us as well, we have numerous times put her in political ads when we wanted to win back the House. She was a very effective boogeyman for our party as well.

But let's be honest. With both her and Mitch McConnell leaving the scene in 2026-2027…

Amna Nawaz:

Yes.

Matt Gorman:

… those sorts of dealmakers, especially, for example, when we had the fiscal cliff back in 2010 or that whole thing, those were the dealmakers. Those were the people that could get in a room with a Joe Biden and hammer a deal out.

Jonathan Capehart:

Right.

Matt Gorman:

There's no one there this time.

Amna Nawaz:

Matt, I do feel compelled…

Jonathan Capehart:

Serious legislators.

Matt Gorman:

Yes.

Amna Nawaz:

I do feel compelled to point that also President Trump was the oldest president ever inaugurated. So is there an age problem on the Republican side as well?

Matt Gorman:

Again, but who's affected? You look on the debate stage in CNN, there's quite a difference between Trump and Biden.

Jonathan Capehart:

I do worry about the current president's mental acuity on a whole host of issues.

Amna Nawaz:

We're going to save this for another conversation as well when we have more time.

I do want to get both of you to weigh in, if we can, on the passing of Dick Cheney, arguably the most consequential vice president in American history. How do you look at his legacy, Jonathan?

Jonathan Capehart:

Sure, he was consequential for some bad things, bad intelligence that got the United States into war in Iraq.

But I do think as part of his — part of his obituary has to be what he did in his final years. And that was to do something that far too many Republicans still in this town refuse to do. And that was to stand up to Donald Trump when he was offending the Constitution and the rights of the American people. And, for that, for that, I applaud him.

Amna Nawaz:

Matt.

Matt Gorman:

I remember an old story.

Him and Dan Quayle, the former vice president, were talking, and Quayle was telling him what the vice presidency is like. This is before Cheney took office.

And Quayle said: "Really, it's pretty ceremonial."

And Cheney, in his trademark kind of dour, he's like: "The president and I have a different understanding."

And isn't that the understatement of probably the decade? He changed that role, whether you're Joe Biden or J.D. Vance, certainly gave a path for them to follow, and really could — was able to pull levers in the administrative state that I think no one else since him has been able to do.

Amna Nawaz:

Complicated legacy, like so many leaders, consequential for, sure. And, of course, our thoughts are with his family.

Matt Gorman, Jonathan Capehart, great to see you both. Thank you so much.

Jonathan Capehart:

Thanks, Amna.

Matt Gorman:

Thank you.