Colorado’s secretary of state discusses effort to keep Trump off the primary ballot

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• Amna Nawaz:

  A complex legal theory will soon be tested in court in Colorado and Minnesota after a group of voters have asked judges to block state officials from putting former President Donald Trump's name on the primary ballot.

  The claim argues that Trump violated the 14th Amendment, which says anyone who — quote — "engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the Constitution after taking a note to defend it is ineligible to hold office."

  More states are expected to face similar legal challenges.

  For more on the lawsuit, I'm joined now by the secretary of state of Colorado, Jena Griswold. She's also chair of the Democratic Association of Secretaries of State.

  Secretary Griswold, welcome. Thanks for joining us.

  Jena Griswold (D), Colorado Secretary of State: Thanks for having me.

• Amna Nawaz:

  So the lawsuit filed in Colorado last week is by a D.C.-based ethics watchdog group basically on behalf of Colorado voters.

  They're asking for a judge to say Trump is disqualified and he shouldn't be on the Colorado ballot. So you have been saying that you need more legal guidance on this. So just help us understand, what are some of the key questions that you think need to be answered before you can take a position on this?

• Jena Griswold:

  There are some big legal questions.

  First and foremost, in relation directly with the 14th Amendment, it's unclear whether that amendment, if someone is disqualified under it, applies to ballot access, so barring that potential candidate from becoming a candidate on a ballot, or just disqualifying them from being seated in office.

  It also is unclear who gets to determine whether someone is disqualified under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. Likewise, we would clarity under Colorado law as to how to consider that potential disqualification.

  So, overall, I think it's a good thing that a court is weighing in, because this is truly an unprecedented situation.

• Amna Nawaz:

  As you know, some folks are already weighing in, arguing that he shouldn't be removed from the ballot, that the voters should be the ones to decide.

  Former Attorney General Michael Mukasey argued in The Wall Street Journal, he said: "If Mr. Trump is to be kept from office, it'll have to be done the old-fashioned way, the way it was done in 2020, by defeating him in an election."

  Georgia's secretary of state, Brad Raffensperger, also said that: "For a secretary of state to remove a candidate would only reinforce the grievances of those who see the system as rigged and corrupt."

  Secretary Griswold, what do you make of those arguments?

• Jena Griswold:

  My job is to follow the law and uphold the Constitution.

  And, honestly, some of those arguments sound they're political arguments. And I think, overall, if the U.S. Constitution bars a candidate, we have to respect that. There's big questions over whether the U.S. Constitution does bar him.

  Section 3 of the 14th Amendment clearly says that, if someone swears to uphold the Constitution and they then go and engage in rebellion or insurrection or give aid or comfort to the enemies of the Constitution, they can no longer hold office.

  Donald Trump incited an insurrection. There's arguments on both sides, and, ultimately, it has to be decided by a court, not the public opinion of the nation. Just to clarify, what has to be decided is whether the 14th Amendment, Section 3, disqualifies him or not, and that needs to be decided by a court, I believe.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Do you expect this to go to the Supreme Court?

• Jena Griswold:

  It's too early.

  I know a lot of people are having conversations saying that it possibly could. I think this is a good candidate case, because it's such an unprecedented situation.

  Look, either way, whether or not Donald Trump is a candidate, whether he's on the ballot, whether he's off, he does pose a threat to democracy. And even without removing him from the ballot in the past, Americans have shown up to protect democracy. They did it in 2018, 2020, and 2022. So I think there's a lot of mechanisms to make sure that this country continues to be one where every person's voice is heard, and that winners and losers of our elections respect the outcomes.

• Amna Nawaz:

  As you know, there are other secretaries of state who are weighing this as well. In New Hampshire, the secretary of state there, David Scanlan, just said that he's rejecting those 14th Amendment claims, that Mr. Trump will be on the ballot.

  We know Mr. Trump blasted out some pressure on him publicly as well. Could it be that be that different secretaries of state in different places see this differently? And what does that mean for our elections?

• Jena Griswold:

  That definitely is a possibility, though I think that the general next step will be similar. Lawsuits likely are to be filed.

  I do think we will see this litigated in various states. That's already happening. There are four lawsuits already filed on the subject, and, ultimately, it will be up to the courts. Look, Section 3 of the 14th Amendment was put in place after the Civil War, and it was used to remove hundreds of Confederate soldiers and former officials from government positions.

  This isn't a new amendment, but what is novel is a situation, that we had a former president try to get people not to vote in a pandemic, making it as hard as possible, having his team scheme up the Electoral College steal, doing all the things that they have done to assault democracy. That is what is really novel.

  And the fact of it is, to have someone who is in the presidency trying to steal an election and lose, and then have the audacity to run again, that's what kicks up these big questions for the nation.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Is this going to be resolved before your Republican primary date?

• Jena Griswold:

  Oh, gosh, if I could answer that, I wouldn't be a secretary of state. I would be a judge.

  I'm not sure, to tell you the truth. I could see a scenario where this case pops up several times during the election cycle. Remember, one of the big questions is whether Section 3 of the 14th Amendment applies to ballot access, so actually getting on the ballot, or only after someone wins while they're being seated for office.

  So we could see this litigation get resolved very quickly, or as quickly as courts resolve things. We could also see it be refiled if Trump is the Republican nominee and, again, if he does win the presidential election, refiled before he takes office.

• Amna Nawaz:

  We will be following it as it unfolds.

  Secretary of State of Colorado Jena Griswold, thank you for joining us. We do appreciate it.

• Jena Griswold:

  Thank you.