Democratic, GOP lawmakers react to Biden pausing bomb shipment to Israel

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• Geoff Bennett:

  We're going to hear perspectives now on all of this from two members of Congress.

  First, Senator Chris Van Hollen, a Democrat from Maryland. He's a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and I spoke with him earlier today.

  Senator Van Hollen, welcome to the "NewsHour."

• Sen. Chris Van Hollen (D-MD):

  It's good to be with you. Thank you for having me.

• Geoff Bennett:

  You have for months been urging President Biden to do more, to use the administration's leverage to pressure Israel to change the way it's prosecuting the war in Gaza to limit civilian suffering.

  What then do you make of this move now to pause a shipment of some 3,500 bombs to Israel over concerns that those weapons might be used in Rafah?

• Sen. Chris Van Hollen:

  I think this is exactly the right kind of move.

  We have had months of a pattern where President Biden asks Prime Minister Netanyahu to meet certain American concerns, only to be mostly ignored. And so it's very important that the president of the United States now make clear that our support is not a blank check. It's not anything goes.

  And the president established a red line. He said he did not want to see an invasion of Rafah. By all accounts, the Netanyahu government is proceeding. So this is exactly the right step for President Biden to take.

• Geoff Bennett:

  There is this concern, though, that pausing the shipment or even conditioning future aid only emboldens Iran and Iran-backed groups.

  The Senate Republican leader, Mitch McConnell, said this move, in his words, creates daylight between America and a close ally.

  What about that? Are you concerned about the message this could potentially send to Israel's enemies in the region and the degree to which this could undermine, in some ways, Israel's security?

• Sen. Chris Van Hollen:

  No, I'm not worried about that.

  We have made very clear that there should be no limit on the transfer of defensive systems, like Iron Dome, like the kinds of systems that intercepted Iranian drones and missiles a number of weeks ago. But we have made equally clear that, when we're talking about American taxpayer dollars, it's important that they be aligned with our interests and values.

  That includes reducing the number of civilian casualties. And we have now seen huge numbers of civilian casualties in the war of Gaza, 35 — 34,000 people killed, two-thirds of them, women and children, and of course, a humanitarian disaster.

  So it's absolutely appropriate that President Biden say that when, we're going to be sending American weapons, we want them to be used in a manner that's consistent with our values and our interests and the red lines that the president has drawn.

• Geoff Bennett:

  Is there, in your view, a potential consequence of tying Israel's hands at this precise moment as it's trying to root out Hamas?

• Sen. Chris Van Hollen:

  This is not about tying Israel's hands. This is about making sure that the war in Gaza is conducted in a way that prevents these huge levels of civilian casualties and makes sure that humanitarian assistance can get to starving people.

  I mean, we have seen 25 people, including kids, already starved to death. So, it's perfectly reasonable, in fact, I would say it's an imperative, for the United States to make clear that our support is not in the form of a blank check.

  The president has made very reasonable requests of the Netanyahu government, only to be repeatedly rebuffed. And so I do believe it's important that the United States use all the tools at its disposal not to tie Israel's hands, but to make sure that our assistance is used in accordance with our values and our objectives.

• Geoff Bennett:

  The Biden administration is expected this week to issue its opinion on whether Israel is violating international or U.S. law in Gaza.

  This is a policy known as NSM-20, which you advocated for. You, as I understand it, have said that you don't expect to get an honest answer. Tell me more about that. Why?

• Sen. Chris Van Hollen:

  Actually, I have not said that I don't expect to.

  I have said, however, that this will be a test of the Biden administration's credibility. And I said I was concerned, based on reports that came out of the State Department as part of an earlier review, that the agencies within the department most knowledgeable about delivering humanitarian assistance, most knowledgeable about implementing international law had been effectively ignored or certainly not adequately listened to at an earlier stage.

  Look, the jury is still out on the report that's coming into Congress. This was a very important piece of National Security Memorandum No. 20. And it's very important that this include the unvarnished facts and truth about what's happened in Gaza.

  And I will say that anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear understands that the humanitarian situation in Gaza is unacceptable. And it's been very clear that the Netanyahu government has not done everything it can to facilitate that assistance.

  And I have said, God help us if we say that what's happened in Gaza is an acceptable international standard. That would be bad news for the world.

• Geoff Bennett:

  That is Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen.

  Thanks again for your time this evening. We appreciate it.

• Sen. Chris Van Hollen:

  Good to be with you, Geoff.

• Amna Nawaz:

  And for an opposing perspective, a short time ago, I spoke with Republican Representative Mike Lawler of New York. He serves on the House Foreign Affairs Committee.

  Congressman Lawler, welcome back to the "NewsHour." Thanks for joining us.

• Rep. Mike Lawler (R-NY):

  Thanks for having me.

• Amna Nawaz:

  So, earlier today, you issued a statement disagreeing with the Biden administration's decision to pause some of those weapons shipments to Israel. You said Israel has the right to defend itself.

  The bigger question here, and based on the Biden administration's decision, is, are you comfortable with Israel's war conduct in Gaza?

• Rep. Mike Lawler:

  Yes, I am.

  Hamas is a terrorist organization who indiscriminately slaughtered innocent women, children, babies on October 7, and uses their own Palestinian civilians as human shields. Israel has a right to defend itself. Nobody would tell the United States after 9/11 or during the war on terror not to go after al-Qaida or ISIS.

  And so I think the approach by the administration is wrong. Congress passed the aid to Israel, along with Ukraine and Taiwan, weeks ago. And so it is incumbent upon the administration to fulfill the legislation that was passed by Congress and get these high-payload munitions to Israel as quickly as possible.

  The fact that they are delaying it and having not informed Congress, but rather tried to hide their decision, is wrong. And so I believe very strongly that they need to move quickly to get the munitions to Israel.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Congressman, as you well know, there are some 34,000 civilians that have been killed in Gaza so far, mostly women and children.

  The head of the World Food Program said recently there is now full-blown famine in the north. Senator Van Hollen said just before you and I spoke that "God help us," he said, if this is now the standard, an acceptable standard for war.

  Do you believe the U.S. has any role in trying to prevent mass civilian casualties in Gaza?

• Rep. Mike Lawler:

  Well, first of all, these numbers are based on the Gaza Health Ministry. They do not differentiate between terrorists killed.

  Obviously, we want to avoid innocent casualties in any war, but there is a reality of war. And so I think Israel has done its very best to limit the casualties. But, again, when Hamas is using innocent civilians as human shields, setting up operations in hospitals and schools, setting up operations in hospitals and schools, I think Israel is conducting the war as best they can, adhering to international law, and making sure that they are rooting out terrorists who are responsible for what happened on October 7.

• Amna Nawaz:

  As you know, the U.S. has said this is not about Israel continuing to protect itself. They have the means to do so.

  The U.S. has surged tens of thousands of bombs and missiles to Israel since the attacks of October 7. And even U.S. officials say now, if they wanted to move ahead with an operation, they have the means to do so in Rafah.

  As you well know, this is focused on those heavy bombs in particular, those 2,000-pound bombs, which we know Israel has used in some dense urban settings, leading to mass civilian casualties. President Biden has called that indiscriminate in the past.

  Are you saying you disagree with that?

• Rep. Mike Lawler:

  I do.

  And I think, again, the president's concern here is more centered on Michigan and Minnesota and the politics of the Democratic Party today than it is on the war. And I, frankly, think it is wrong.

  Israel is under threat and attack. And again, Hamas is a terrorist organization. And so they have a right to defend themselves. They have a right to prosecute this war. And I think the president should be supporting the state of Israel as they conduct this war.

• Amna Nawaz:

  As we have now reached — and I know you said there's questions around the civilian casualty number of 34,000. The consensus seems to be they are mostly civilians, mostly women and children.

  I just wonder, as you say you believe Israel is prosecuting the war fairly and not indiscriminately, is there a civilian casualty number that's too high for you?

• Rep. Mike Lawler:

  I think any civilian loss is tragic.

  And everybody, the United States, Israel, and any time you're in war, try to limit that as best you can. But you are dealing with a terrorist organization that is using civilians, innocent civilians, as human shields.

  Look, I want the Palestinian people to be free from their oppressor. Their oppressor is Hamas. And so the objective of everyone should be to eliminate Hamas as the governing body of Gaza and make sure that the Palestinian people are free.

  And, ultimately, the fastest way for a cease-fire to occur and for the avoidance of any civilian casualties is for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages. That should be what everyone, including those on college campuses, is demanding.

  The fact that you have some folks identifying with Hamas here in America is deeply disturbing. And it does nothing to actually help protect innocent civilian life in Gaza.

• Amna Nawaz:

  That is Republican Representative Mike Lawler of New York joining us tonight.

  Congressman, thank you.

• Rep. Mike Lawler:

  Thank you.

• Amna Nawaz:

  And, late today, President Biden himself made it explicit in an interview with CNN that he would not send bombs to Israel if it launches a major ground assault into Rafah City.

  He also said he would restrict the shipment of artillery shells if Israel takes that step.