Israel accused UN agency of enabling and employing Hamas. Experts debate its future

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• William Brangham:

  The U.N. acknowledged today that aid deliveries into Gaza have dropped dramatically, threatening a population where hunger is spreading.

  That aid is delivered by a U.N. agency that Israel recently accused of acting — quote — "under the authorization of Hamas." Some Israelis have called for its abolition, and the U.S. has frozen its funding.

  Nick Schifrin examines the question and fate of UNRWA.

• Nick Schifrin:

  When Israel was born, so was UNRWA. The U.N. created the U.N. Relief and Works Agency to serve three-quarters-of-a-million Palestinians who fled or were forced out of what is now Israel; 75 years later, UNRWA serves their descendants, nearly six million Palestinians in Gaza and across the region, with schools, health clinics, and, especially today, humanitarian assistance.

  But during Hamas' October 7 terrorist attack, an Israeli dossier says four UNRWA staffers were involved in kidnapping Israelis, six UNRWA staffers in total infiltrated into Israel, and it said UNRWA acts under the authorization and supervision of Hamas.

  And underneath UNRWA headquarters in Gaza, Israel said it found a Hamas tunnel. In response, the U.S. and Germany, UNRWA's largest donors and a dozen more countries, have frozen funding. UNRWA says, if the funding doesn't resume, it will have to stop delivering aid in Gaza by the end of the month.

  For two perspectives on the allegations against and the future of UNRWA, we turn to reserve Israeli Colonel Grisha Yakubovich, who was the former head of the Civil Department of Coordination of Government Activities in the Territories, known as COGAT, from 2012 to 2016. He is a current expert with the Israeli think tank The MirYam Institute.

  And Matthias Schmale was the UNRWA director of operations in Gaza from 2017 to 2021. He now advises the U.N. Development Regional Office in Ethiopia.

  Thank you very much. Welcome both of you to the "NewsHour."

  Matthias Schmale, let me start with you.

  The dossier that Israel has released on Hamas on October the 7th that I just referred to not only refers to UNRWA staffers' activity on October 7, but it says that 10 percent of UNRWA's 12,000 employees in Gaza are either members of Hamas or Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

  When you ran UNRWA in Gaza, you actually had to fire some half-a-dozen members for their links to Hamas. Do you find the Israeli dossier credible? And what's your response to it?

• Matthias Schmale, Former UNRWA Operations Director, Gaza:

  To the best of my knowledge — I have not seen the dossier itself. And to the best of my knowledge, UNRWA itself has not been given the dossier and/or substantial evidence to back up the claims that up to 13 UNRWA staff were involved in the horror that was inflicted in Israel on October 7.

  Secondly, based on my own experience of almost four years in Gaza, I find the claim that 10 percent of UNRWA staff are active members of Hamas grossly exaggerated. My senior management team consisted of about 12 to 15 people, most of them Palestinian. And in my experience, again, over four years, none of them were closely linked or had sympathies for Hamas.

• Nick Schifrin:

  Grisha Yakubovich, is it grossly exaggerated to suggest 10 percent of UNRWA's Hamas?

• Col. Grisha Yakubovich, IDF Reserves:

  When the IDF says that 13 UNRWA employees were involved in the horror on October 7, so the IDF has the evidence. And it will not — nobody will declare something like that because now we have this desire to say it.

  Now, if you remember the tunnel that was found under the U.N. — the UNRWA headquarters, all the technology underneath the headquarters is something that will not be built in a year or two years. It's something that should take at least five years, six years minimum.

  This is a huge tunnel with a ton of technology, that it's all from Iran. And it's not even logic that nobody would see that or know that. One of the problems UNRWA in Gaza that, during the last years, the international staff actually reached to minimal, minimal, minimal people.

  And all the 12,000 officials, I think, almost 99 percent of them were locals. So nobody would actually check if you are in Hamas (INAUDIBLE) Fatah or whatever.

• Nick Schifrin:

  Matthias Schmale, so respond to that, the idea that the infiltration, so to speak, of UNRWA literally underneath headquarters by Hamas is not something that happened recently. It would take years, and, therefore, UNRWA would know about it.

• Matthias Schmale:

  Look, during my time, it was evident that there are tunnels all over Gaza.

  You might also know that a former Prime Minister of Israel Ehud Barak actually acknowledged that part of the tunnels under Shifa Hospital were actually built by Israel during their time of direct occupation of Gaza. So, no surprises that there are tunnels underneath many installations in Gaza.

  What puzzles me is that, in my almost four years of relatively regular contact with COGAT, the Israeli administration for the Gaza Strip, the occupied territories, this was never brought up as an issue, nor was it brought up as an issue that Israel had evidence of 10 percent of UNRWA staff being proactive members of Hamas.

  What I was told is, we need UNRWA. You are doing good work. We don't like what you say at times publicly, but the services you provide are essential.

• Nick Schifrin:

  Grisha Yakubovich, there is a debate in Israel, of course, whether UNRWA should be replaced.

  Do Israeli officials privately tell UNRWA and other people that, yes, they do need UNRWA?

• Col. Grisha Yakubovich:

  Well, I want to be very, very honest here.

  Yes, UNRWA is an important player when it comes to provide aid to the people in Gaza. We are not saying that the people in Gaza should not — that they don't deserve this aid. The thing here is that it's about time that it will be done through a Palestinian sovereignty in Gaza and not UNRWA.

  Nobody actually really needs UNRWA. You can actually do the same thing by giving the money, giving the aid to an entity that will rule there, control there, and be responsible. The moment you have UNRWA there, by the way, doing a great job during the whole — those whole years. I'm not saying that UNRWA is not an important player that provides food, aid, medical care and treatment and treating the refugee camps.

  This is not something that I can take away from UNRWA. I have been working with them. And we even encouraged them in the past to do it. The problem is when that organization is used, the U.N. flags are used by a terror organization as a cover for terror activity. That's the problem.

• Nick Schifrin:

  Matthias Schmale, is UNRWA used as cover for terror, and is there a possible replacement?

• Matthias Schmale:

  I have seen no evidence, either in my time on the ground in Gaza of almost four years or since, that suggests UNRWA is used or controlled by Hamas.

  In fact, in 2014, so before my time, we ourselves at one point discovered weapons in a school that was abandoned because of military activities. We ourselves alerted Israel and then clarified with Hamas that those weapons had to be removed.

  So we have over the years done everything to protect the integrity of the organization. I said during my time in Gaza that no one, including myself, wants UNRWA to continue another decade, another 70 years. UNRWA is not there out of self-interest.

  The only reason UNRWA exists is because there is, as yet, no just solution accepted by both sides. The minute there is a just solution, Palestinians have a state they can call their own, UNRWA will cease to exist.

• Nick Schifrin:

  Grisha Yakubovich, take on that point that Matthias Schmale just made. That is that he and other people in charge of UNRWA have done enough, have done as much as they can to try and keep Hamas outside of UNRWA.

  Has UNRWA, has the U.N. done enough?

• Col. Grisha Yakubovich:

  There should be an end to UNRWA's work in Gaza. And it has nothing to do with the Palestinian state.

  It can be with a Palestinian entity that will take responsibility and they should mature. They can get the money, no problem with that. They can get the aid, but they should take responsibility on themselves, so they will not use the cover of a U.N.-imported organization to use it and eventually to use it for terror, because this is actually what happened during this horror that happened on October 7.

• Nick Schifrin:

  Grisha Yakubovich, Matthias Schmale, thank you very much to you both.

• Col. Grisha Yakubovich:

  Thank you, guys.

• Matthias Schmale:

  Thank you.