Giuliani ordered to pay $148 million for defamation of election workers

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• Amna Nawaz:

  As we come on the air, a verdict tonight in one of the cases related to the 2020 election.

• Geoff Bennett:

  Earlier this evening, a federal jury in Washington ordered Rudy Giuliani, Donald Trump's former campaign attorney, to pay $148 million to two Georgia election workers for distress caused by lies he spread following the 2020 election.

  NPR's Miles Parks was in the courtroom today and joins us now.

  So, Miles, we should say, this was a civil trial. And the jury was asked only to decide the amount of damages.

  Here's what Rudy Giuliani told reporters on his way out of the courtroom today.

• Rudy Giuliani, Former Attorney For President Donald Trump:

  Very little I can say right now. I have to analyze this.

  Obviously, possibly, we will move for a new trial. Certainly, we will appeal. The absurdity of the number merely underscores the absurdity of the entire proceeding.

• Geoff Bennett:

  So, he's calling that number, the $148 million, absurd. How did the jury arrive at that number and what message were they trying to send?

• Miles Parks, NPR:

  I mean, it is a staggering number, isn't it?

  I think, throughout the entire week, the plaintiffs' attorneys were trying to make the case that the jury should send a message, that election lies, especially when the people pushing them are essentially using real people and who are getting caught up as casualties, that this is not acceptable.

  It made it clear that they wanted the jury to repair the women's reputation. But more than that, they wanted them to send a message that this is not how healthy democracies behave.

• Geoff Bennett:

  We heard from both Shaye Moss and Ruby Freeman, who were subjected to Rudy Giuliani's lies about them. Here's what Ms. Freeman told reporters.

• Ruby Freeman, Former Georgia Election Worker:

  Money will never solve all of my problems. I can never move back into the house that I called home. I always have to be careful about where I go and who I choose to share my name with.

• Geoff Bennett:

  How did their attorneys make the case to the jury that the extreme emotional distress, their damaged reputations, that that was worth X-amount?

• Miles Parks:

  Well, it really was kind of a two-prong approach, where you had the practical aspect, and they made that case.

  They had an expert witness who was a marketing professor from Northwestern come in and show how these lies reached tens of millions of Americans in the time after voting ended in 2020, and then had her put together a strategic communications plan, essentially, what it would cost to counter those lies and repair the reputation.

  That estimate was put at roughly $47 million. And so then, on top of that, then they said, and how do you measure essentially the emotional toll of this? And both women who were affected testified. Both women got emotional cried on the stand.

  The jurors and the public saw, I mean, more death threats than I could count. We heard racist voice-mails that were left for these women that Shaye Moss' son reportedly heard. And so all of that was kind of taken into consideration when the jury was coming up with this $148 million number.

• Geoff Bennett:

  We heard Rudy Giuliani say an appeal is on the way. What happens next?

• Miles Parks:

  It's a little bit unclear. He says he's going to appeal.

  I mean, throughout this entire process, one of the strange things about this is that while the attorneys that for the plaintiffs say they want to send a message that this is not acceptable, Rudy Giuliani has continued to say these lies that he is being sued for.

  Here on Monday, after court ended on the courthouse steps, Rudy Giuliani said, everything I have said about those women is true, and said again that they stole the election.

  So what's next? I think he is clearly indicating that he's going to appeal this decision. I think what's a little more unclear is how this penalty is going to affect whether he and whether the former president whether other people who have continued to spread these lies over the last few years, whether this affects whether they continue to do that looking ahead to 2024.

• Geoff Bennett:

  NPR's Miles Parks, thanks for coming in straight from the courtroom today.

  We appreciate it.

• Miles Parks:

  Thanks, Geoff.