Immigration Challenge

RAY SUAREZ:

The politics of immigration do not split neatly along party or regional lines. Members of the House and Senate had broad and varied reactions to proposals discussed by President Fox and the Bush administration in recent weeks.

We're now joined by three Congressmen who follow immigration issues: Thomas Tancredo of Colorado, who chairs the Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus; Silvestre Reyes of Texas, head of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus; and Chris Cannon of Utah, a member of the House subcommittee on immigration.

Well, Congressman Tancredo, you just heard the president discuss a solution that Congress can accept. By your views, what does that look like?

REP. THOMAS TANCREDO:

Well, it's an interesting question and one that we keep wrestling around up here. We have said and certainly I have said over and over again that if anybody can prove that there is a significant need for workers in the United States that we do not have here, that Americans will… For jobs that, quote, I always hear this, Americans will not fill for whatever reason, if that is the case, then we can devise a guest worker program that can do two things: Bring workers in and protect their rights so that they won't be exploited as they often are today by people who are trying to get them to work for lower wages and fewer benefits. On the one hand, we can also control the process and they can go home after a period of time, whatever the contractual arrangement is for. If you can come up with a good guest worker program that does those two things, I will be very willing to look at that.

RAY SUAREZ:

Does that guest worker program imagine handling first those people who are already here, or you would ask that hey go home first?

REP. THOMAS TANCREDO:

No, absolutely not. No guest worker program that is connected to something like amnesty– although nobody wants to use that word anymore but it is exactly what we're talking about– guest worker programs are guest worker programs; amnesty is amnesty. They should never be connected. If you believe we have a problem in the United States with illegal immigration, which I certainly believe we do, then please explain to me… I'd love anybody to explain to me how they think amnesty helps solve the problem of illegal immigration; it certainly doesn't. We tried it in 1986. What happened, of course, is immigration — illegal immigration exploded because we sent the wrong message; that is, get here avoid detection, stay long enough and we'll give you legalized status. It's a bad, bad thing for a government to do.

RAY SUAREZ:

Well, Representative Reyes, let's move to you next. The Hispanic Caucus met with President Fox during his visit here. Immigration was certainly discussed. Where do you and the caucus come down on how these matters should be handled now?

REP. SILVESTRE REYES:

Well, first of all, I should tell you that I spent 26-and-a-half years working with the United States Border Patrol — the last 12 years as a chief patrol agent in South Texas and in El Paso. So I know the issue of border control, immigration and INS, like the back of my hand. I can perhaps help my colleague here understand the dynamics of what we're trying to work through and perhaps look back at the 1986 law that basically was very effective and we can show statistically that the employer sanctions was an effective tool. The problem was that Congress never followed through in giving INS the resources to enforce employer sanctions in the interior of the United States. Today we've got a dilemma where people that entered subsequent to the '86 law have been working here, have been paying taxes, are members of our community, and we've got essentially the same situation that we had in 1986.

What the Hispanic Caucus proposes and what President Bush, I think, committed to in his first visit with President Fox in Guanajuato, was that he would make a make it a top priority to find a way to legalize and provide a guest worker program much as Congressman Tancredo is talking about for Mexico. We, from the caucus, think that we need to be inclusive in whatever we do in immigration, but more than anything else we need to recognize that there are people living in our country that are doing the kinds of jobs that others won't do in the service industry, in the construction industry, in the agricultural industry and, therefore, we need to legalize them because in many cases not only are they living, paying taxes, and doing the things that all of us do in our communities, but they've got United States citizen children and they need to have that kind of benefit afforded to them.

RAY SUAREZ:

Congressman, just to see if I understand you correctly, you would like see a guest worker program like your colleague proposes but also a machinery set up to regularize, to legalize the status of the millions who are already here?

REP. SILVESTRE REYES:

Well, and you know, we should be clear about one thing. As I go around the country speaking and giving speeches and speaking to people about half the individuals that are here are really interested in getting a worker permit, not necessarily interested in legal residency and citizenship, but being able to work here — go back to their homes in Mexico and go back and forth. So I mention that because it's not millions and millions as we've been led to believe it. I would also point out that in 1986 the estimates were that we were going to deal with between nine, twelve or perhaps fourteen million people, and we legalized three million people. I just think that's what this country is about.

We're a nation that was built by immigrants and immigration. It's a realization that we have to be inclusive. And that's perhaps where Congressman Tancredo and I disagree. But again we need a proposal, we need the White House to step forward. There is a way to get this done this year if we can work through the details.

RAY SUAREZ:

Congressman Cannon, you're often referred to as the man who helps explain George W. Bush's views on immigration to your colleagues in the House of Representatives. What's the Bush position and is Thomas Tancredo right when he refers to amnesty as a word that nobody wants to use anymore?

REP. CHRIS CANNON:

I notice that my dear friend, Congressman Tancredo, talked about a word that nobody uses but which then he spoke a great deal about. And I think the problem here is that when you talk about amnesty, you're dealing with a very divisive concept. And the reason we don't talk about amnesty anymore is because actually we are talking about a very different concept. And frankly we're talking in an environment where the concepts are changing pretty radically. I mean the idea that you would deal with immigration issues in the context of bilateral discussions with a friendly nation is something we haven't done before. I think it's very important by the way that if we're dealing with a process that people can go through and pay a penalty and convert from undocumented illegal status to a legal status, that ought to apply to everyone, not just people who are of Mexican origin.

But the fact that we're dealing with Mexico, that the two presidents are dealing together, the fact that Mexico has come so far in the last few years has developed so greatly, that NAFTA has become an incredibly successful process, the adoption of technology in Mexico, the advances in business, the advances in the rule of law, frankly President Fox pointed out that his election represents a major change in Mexico itself — and I believe that's the case — means that we can do different things and new things. And so I don't know that we can do much by the end of the year, as he had hoped. But I think in the legislative process, if we drop divisive terms and focus on what we need in the American economy and the opportunities that we have with our neighbor and biggest trading partner, Mexico, second biggest trading partner, that we have great opportunities to change the dynamic, which currently results in many people being worried for their safety, for the integrity of their families, for the opportunity to continue at the work that they're doing as opposed to being jerked out of their situation and taken home.

RAY SUAREZ:

So do you see a new immigration set-up that goes perhaps not as far as Congressman Reyes suggested but isn't as restricted as Congressman Tancredo suggested?

REP. CHRIS CANNON:

I think we're dealing with a new concept here. We're not dealing with amnesty. It's not that we're avoiding the word; it's that we're changing the concept. The concept is to have a process whereby people who are here today and who are working… we just don't have enough Americans to do the jobs – and in fact, frankly, most economists believe that we — that much of our recent growth in this economy has depended upon those many people from many different countries who have come here illegally. So we need to have a process whereby those people can regularize– that's a word that I don't even understand myself– but they need to be in a situation where they don't have to worry about being jerked out of that….

RAY SUAREZ:

Be made legal.

REP. CHRIS CANNON:

Yeah, through a process.

RAY SUAREZ:

Do you propose that this not be a cost-free proposition because some of your colleagues in the Republican Caucus have been upset about the notion that you could regularize your status after breaking the law to get here.

REP. CHRIS CANNON:

I think the most legitimate concern of those people who oppose immigration, generally speaking, in America, the most reasonable response or rationale for those people is that if someone comes illegally and you give him a process to become legal, that is somehow rewarding appropriate behavior. We want to avoid that. That means there has to be a penalty associated with it. There has to be proof of good citizenship and contribution to society. There also has to be some other penalty that goes along. And frankly I don't know what those penalties are. People talk about monetary penalties. There are all kinds of things we can do I suppose.

But it certainly should be a process that's clear that results in some kind of either permanent or, you know, people can go back to Mexico and in fact President Fox made this great point of inviting people back to Mexico who are here now. So permanent is a choice I think that people make but at least an opportunity to stay here without the threat of being thrown out.

RAY SUAREZ:

Congressman Tancredo, would that help any sort of regularization provision to acknowledge that this journey began an illegal act?

REP. THOMAS TANCREDO:

Acknowledging it has got nothing to do with it. When someone breaks the law, they can acknowledge they broke the law and there is a penalty to be assessed to that and not a reward. And by the way I use the word "amnesty" because I'm not as adept at obfuscation as perhaps some of my colleagues. I mean I call it exactly what it is. I know that terms like "regularization" and "earned legalization" have gained some cache, but it's only to avoid dealing with the reality of what we're talking about here.

I mean, the tortured logic that my dear friend has just described that somehow or other we will not provide a reward for someone who has come into the United States and broken the law by giving them a legal status — we just won't say we're doing it but, of course, we are! I mean, it's just as explain as the nose on your face that that's exactly what's happening and we can't do that. I'm astounded in a way that here we are, three members of the Congress of the United States, and two of us are trying to figure out ways to essentially ignore the laws that we pass. What an amazing and almost bizarre situation to be in.

RAY SUAREZ:

Well, Congressman Reyes just spent a long time trying to enforce those very laws.

REP. THOMAS TANCREDO:

I was just talking to him about that.

REP. SILVESTRE REYES:

And you know, I think it's important to remember that we're dealing with people that are members of our community, that are working here, that are paying taxes. Their kids are going to school. Congressman Tancredo has these people in his district. They pick the food. They cook it. They serve it. They work on the freeways. They do all these kinds of things. And, you know, that's what America is about, about opportunity. We were talking earlier before coming on this show, and I was relaying my experiences and making the point that these people that we see in the clips are hard-working, good people that are coming here for a better way of life. If there is any blame to be shared, it's the fact that we haven't done a good enough job in a public policy way to enforce the laws that are in the books. We haven't funded the border patrol. We have to understand that we have a responsibility.

REP. THOMAS TANCREDO:

I agree.

REP. SILVESTRE REYES:

We have a responsibility here but let's start by not penalizing people that are here working, paying taxes, that have kids in schools and a lot of them U.S. citizen kids.

RAY SUAREZ:

Well, Suarez: I'm going to have to stop you right there. This is certainly a conversation that's going to have to continue. And, Gentlemen, I want to thank you all for being here.

REP. CHRIS CANNON:

Thank you.

REP. THOMAS TANCREDO:

Okay, thank you very much.

REP. SILVESTRE REYES:

Thank you.