In Honduras, Controversy Grows over Questions that Presidential Ouster is a Coup

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• RAY SUAREZ:

  Was the Honduran military conducting a classic coup or upholding the constitution? We get two views on that from Roger Noriega, a former ambassador to the Organization of American States in the Bush administration. He's now a visiting fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.

  And Christopher Sabatini, senior director of policy at the Americas Society, a think-tank focused on Latin America. He's also editor-in-chief of its magazine, Americas Quarterly.

  And, Christopher Sabatini, let's start with you. Was Manuel Zelaya removed from office in a coup?

• CHRISTOPHER SABATINI, Americas Society:

  Yes, this was a classic coup. The military came to his palace at night, literally kicked him out of bed in his pajamas, put him on a plane, sent him to Costa Rica, and removed him from office.

  Having said that, it should be pointed out that this man has rightly been championed as being a victim of a coup, but he by no means should be seen as only a victim.

  In the weeks preceding his removal from office, he had, indeed, overridden the congress in pressing for this referendum. He had ignored the ruling of the supreme court, which had declared the referendum unconstitutional. And he had also removed a number of military leaders who had refused to cooperate.

  So there's a lot that preceded it, and this was really seen — primarily should be seen as really a train wreck of institutional stalemate and conflict, but, ultimately, this was a coup that removed him on June 28th.

• RAY SUAREZ:

  Ambassador Noriega, do you agree with that, that this was a coup reminiscent of the bad old days in Latin America?

• ROGER NORIEGA, Former State Department Official:

  No, I really don't. The further you get away from Honduras, the more and more it may look like a coup.

  Your excellent report and Chris' commentary just mentioned that the military removed Zelaya from office. That's not correct. He was removed — ordered detained because of his violations of the constitution by the supreme court of Honduras.

  The military was calling out — carrying out those orders. It never held on to power. It passed that power to the congress, which followed a constitutional process to replace him.

  This is a tragedy. And it's one, frankly, that's brought about by Zelaya's own excesses, trying to follow Hugo Chavez's playbook and steal power, and hold on to power for at least another term, which is absolutely against the Honduran constitution.

  It's a process that could have been avoided, Zelaya's willfully moving forward, deliberately defying explicit orders of the court, and courting this disaster, because he felt that he could roll over these other institutions. That's where the real challenge for us today is, how do you get the OAS, the United States diplomacy to respond more effectively when these carillos (ph), these strong men, run roughshod over the democratic institutions in their countries. We responded too little, too late.

• RAY SUAREZ:

  Christopher Sabatini, you heard the ambassador suggest that this was done strictly by the book with the authorization of the Honduran supreme court?

• CHRISTOPHER SABATINI:

  Quite frankly, I mean, if this were done by the book, what they would have done is impeach him. This is not a case where he had so stripped away the powers of the congress and the supreme court that they were not free to act and serve as a legitimate voice for the opposition.

  They had opposed it. They could have allowed the referendum to go forward and then done what democracies usually do, including the United States: impeach the president for breaking the law. Instead, they called on the military, which may not have kept power, but did put him on a plane, did arrest him at gunpoint, and got him the heck out of the country. That's a coup.