Iraq’s Constitution Struggle

Read the Full Transcript

• MARGARET WARNER:

  Today, the parties scrambled to come up with an agreement after a call from President Bush yesterday urging one of Iraq's most powerful Shiite clerics and political leaders to help break the deadlock over the constitution. For the latest on these efforts we turn to Laith Kubba, the spokesman for the Shiite-led government in Iraq.

  Mr. Kubba, welcome. As you and I are talking right now it's a little after midnight in Baghdad. Where do things stand with this last minute offer from the Shiites to the Sunnis?

• LAITH KUBBA:

  It's an attempt to bring in as many Sunnis as possible to a compromise. But I don't think anybody has the illusion that there can be a draft that would please everybody, all players at the same time. This is far fetched; it's unrealistic.

  But the attempt here is to bring in as many as possible, certainly to have minimum Sunni endorsement to it and to leave to it the nation to decide whether this is a good or a bad draft.

• MARGARET WARNER:

  So, as of this moment, is there a deal?

• LAITH KUBBA:

  As of this moment there is a deal on principles, on compromises; a little bit on federalism, maybe suspended six months instead of two years, maybe have a simple majority instead of a two-third majority approval at parliament — technical things. But the essence of it is difficult to reconcile.

  We have one view of Iraq, which the Sunni hold and many Iraqis share that view with them: An Iraq which is sovereign, undivided in land and people; another vision that sees Iraq more federal, a compound state which different sovereign parts in a way make the state of Iraq.

• MARGARET WARNER:

  So the latest Shiite offer as you understand it was, what, to put off some of the mechanisms for creating these autonomous states until, was it December when the new parliament is elected, is that the gist of it?

• LAITH KUBBA:

  That's the gist of it. There was a request to put it off for two years. I think the Shia leaders are saying six months is good enough. Then there was a request that it should get a two-third majority at parliament for any region to become federal.

  The other counteroffer was more or less to make it simple majority, technical things like that. But in essence it's an attempt to play on time and delay things. I think ultimately in October it's the country that is going to have its say, and if there is a good chance a no vote is going to prevail.

• MARGARET WARNER:

  Now, what role did President Bush's phone call yesterday to Mr. Hakim, the head of SCIRI, one of the largest Shiite parties, what role did that have in persuading the Shiites to at least come back with one more offer?

• LAITH KUBBA:

  I think all partners know that the U.S. has invested so much in Iraq, both in terms of blood, in terms of money, time, effort, its prestige is on the line, so everybody knows and appreciates that.

  However, Iraqis are working on an Iraqi agenda, what they are setting today is going to affect generations to come. And this is — the phone call put an important pressure, but I don't think it drives the agenda. The agenda is very much Iraqi driven.

• MARGARET WARNER:

  Now, the other big issue as we understood in the last minute sense was the role of former Baathists, what role they could hold in public life. What did the Shiites want and what were the Sunnis demanding and what is the potential compromise?

• LAITH KUBBA:

  There were two element articles in the draft constitution mentioning the Baath Party. One there is a statement banning all political associations that advocate hatred, racism, et cetera, et cetera, and it names the Baath Party as one of them. I think the Sunnis are saying leave it, in general, do not specify to the Baath Party.

  And the second one, there's a commission for de-Baathification; again, they are arguing it should not be put in the constitution, it should be put in a law. I think these points, as you can imagine, they are very much open to compromise and they're not real issues. The real issue remains on the structure and identity of the state.

• MARGARET WARNER:

  So how optimistic are you that at least enough of the Sunnis on the committee will agree to this and you won't have some of the Sunnis coming out and saying to the public, this completely, you know, this completely discriminates against Sunnis and you should all go out and vote against it?

• LAITH KUBBA:

  To give you an objective point of view, I think this process has reached its end, negotiators really exhausted every argument. The country either moves left or right and it cannot move in both directions at the same time. A decision need to be made.

  The different points of views have been articulated, and I believe that the Sunni participants will not be satisfied with these small compromises. I think they will call for a no vote. I think they're going to mobilize beyond the Sunni constituency, they will even mobilize some Shia constituency, some middle class in Baghdad who are more sympathetic with a broader national central state. So I think the no vote stands a good chance.

• MARGARET WARNER:

  The no vote stands a good chance of actually defeating this?

• LAITH KUBBA:

  Yes, and let me say that it's not a bad outcome to have a no vote because it encourages Iraqis to believe in their process, to vote, to know that if they want to bring change they can do it through the ballot box, not through bullets, not through violence.

  So in a way it will strengthen the belief in the process. It's going to cost Iraq some time to restart this all over again, another six months, but it's not a disaster if it was a no vote at the end of the day.

• MARGARET WARNER:

  At what point is your government then going to say, all right, enough's enough; we are definitely going forward to October?

• LAITH KUBBA:

  I think this is more or less a de facto position that is going to be born any minute. We thought it was going to be announced tonight — if not tomorrow, then Sunday the assembly will meet and I think it's going to be formally presented to them for endorsement and then six month — six weeks to the referendum.

• MARGARET WARNER:

  All right, Laith Kubba, spokesman for the (Ibrahim) al-Jaafari government in Iraq, thank you.

• LAITH KUBBA:

  Thank you.

• MARGARET WARNER:

  Now a response from one of the leading Sunni negotiators on the constitutional committee, Saleh al-Mutlaq.

  Mr. al-Mutlaq, welcome. Give us the latest from your perspective on where this last-minute compromise from the Shiites stands.

• SALEH MUTLAQ:

  Well, actually I don't see it as a compromise. In fact, they have gone backwards. Yesterday we agreed that they would remove the Baathist issue from the constitution. Today, they brought it back.

  Regarding the federalism, we asked them to transfer it for the next national assembly and let the Iraqi people decide whether they want federalism or another system.

  And they put conditions that the next national assembly should make a law how to make the regions form to be in a federal state. In our opinion, the federalism in Iraq will break up the country.

  And we know our country very well and we know how the wealth is distributed unevenly in Iraq, and we know that federal states will establish extreme Islamist regions: One in the South and one in the middle of the country; one in the Sunnis and one in the Shia. And both of them will be established.

  And these Islamist governments will lead to our federal regions — will lead to a war between the two regions because they're both extremist. So I don't think it's for the benefit of Iraq, either for the benefit of the states nor the benefit of the world to have a disintegrated Iraq.

• MARGARET WARNER:

  But, Mr. al-Mutlaq, Mr. Kubba — let me just ask you first on that point — Mr. Kubba just said that he thought the compromise offer was to put that off until December, until the new parliament is elected. But are you saying that's not the way you understand it?

• SALEH MUTLAQ:

  No, no, they will talk until that time, but they make conditions. First, they excluded the presidential cabinet from having a say on it, which is, you know, which we cannot understand why — just because somebody wants to push federalism.

  Otherwise, in every case, the presidential cabinet have a say on the laws, which comes from the national assembly, but in this case they excluded it. There was a statement or a phrase in the constitution, which says that Iraq is one unity and it cannot be disintegrated. They removed that from the constitution.

  So by removing that and putting this condition and these conditions in the – before the national assembly it means that they're going to disintegrate the country, and I don't think that is for the benefit of anybody.

  When we came into the political process, you know, we took a big risk and we lost three of our colleagues from the constitutional committee. They were killed. And we have taken all this risk because we want to be part of the political process. So they will not say the Sunnis are always out. But, and also we came under the agreement that everything would go by consensus, but now they are passing everything without consensus.

  The national assembly should have been dissolved now, because, you know, it was against the law, they worked against the law and they passed the constitution. So how could people trust the next referendum if now with the national assembly and with the states and everybody here they are breaking the law and making it the way they want it? It is completely unfair and it cannot be acceptable.

• MARGARET WARNER:

  And by breaking the law, you mean because they kind of broke all the deadlines. What are you going to do, well, first of all then, are you saying that the Sunni negotiators of which you are a member are going to say no to this compromise?

• SALEH MUTLAQ:

  Well, we are going to have a big meeting for all the 15 members tomorrow and we will tell them what's going on and then they will have the right to say yes or no. But most likely they will say no because nobody would accept to see that Iraq is not united. Iraq is going to be disintegrated and to see that the future of Iraq is going to be that way; and nobody can take such a risk. In fact it is not only the Sunnis who are rejecting this. Most of the Arabs in the south, they are rejecting it.

• MARGARET WARNER:

  So, what are the Sunnis going to do if, as Mr. Kubba said, the Shiite-led government decides to go ahead and put this to referendum — you will be going out and campaigning and urging fellow Sunnis to vote against it?

• SALEH MUTLAQ:

  Most likely, yes, and we will urge all the Iraqis not only the Sunnis. We will urge our brothers, the Arabs in the south to go and vote against it.

• MARGARET WARNER:

  What impact do you think that will have on the insurgency?

• SALEH MUTLAQ:

  Well, it will have a negative effect on everything, actually. I think people will go on demonstrating in the street, they will lose hope, they, the extremists will come in together where there are demonstrations or raise Saddam's pictures in streets. And this is the first time that happened since two years, and this was done only because they felt that there is no hope from this government. So they are looking for the war situation they had before.

  Just imagine if this hope is going to be lost from the people, what is going to happen. We were determined actually, determined to do something and pull everybody for the political process. But we failed; we failed to do that and it's very unfortunate.

  And this will put us also on a different shape among other political people who say don't go, you will not get anything from them. We took the risk and we went in, but this is the result.

• MARGARET WARNER:

  All right. Saleh Mutlaq, a leading Sunni negotiator on the constitution, thanks so much.

• SALEH MUTLAQ:

  Thank you indeed, thank you very much.