Nations at COP28 agree to transition away from fossil fuels, but loopholes remain

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• William Brangham:

  The U.N.'s climate change conference, COP 28, has come to a close with nearly 200 nations agreeing to a historic first, that they should transition away from burning the fossil fuels that are warming the planet.

  In addition to that promise, the nations pledged to triple the amount of wind, solar and other renewable energy deployed by 2030 to stop deforestation by the same year and to curb the release of methane, which is one of the most potent greenhouse gases.

  The reaction to the agreement has been mixed. While some hailed this first ever mention of fossil fuels, others, especially those who represent small island nations threatened by sea level rise, were much more critical.

  Here's Anne Rasmussen from the nation of Samoa.

• Anne Rasmussen:

  We have come to the conclusion that the course correction that is needed has not been secured. We have made an incremental advancement over business as usual, when what we really needed is an exponential step change in our actions and support.

• William Brangham:

  Joining me now is Manish Bapna. He is president and CEO of the Natural Resources Defense Council.

  Manish, welcome back to the "NewsHour."

  A lot of concern going into this COP. We have just lived through what is now the hottest year in recorded human history. And people were arguing, why are you holding a climate summit in a nation that is known for pumping out oil and gas?

  But, still, some historic first, as I mentioned. What do you make of this whole agreement?

  Manish Bapna, President and CEO, Natural Resources Defense Council: I mean, I think both of these points can be true.

  There was — for the first time ever, the entire international community came together, 195 countries, to explicitly call for the transition away, out of fossil fuels. That is a significant signal to policymakers, to investors, to CEOs about what the future actually looks like.

  But equally true, the science is clear, the math is unforgiving, and we need to see a lot more speed, a lot more scale. The concern that the Samoan delegate mentioned is real.

• William Brangham:

  I mean, I hear what you're saying about fossil fuels, but it is remarkable that, 30 years into these summits, we're finally now getting around to mentioning this.

  I mean, it's like having back in the '60s conferences about lung cancer and taking 30 years to talk about weaning ourself off cigarettes. I mean, it's progress, but baby steps.

• Manish Bapna:

  You're right.

  But the oil and gas industry in 2022 collected $4 trillion in profits worldwide. This is a significant industry that has a vested interest in status quo. And to get all 195 countries to sign a piece of paper, a statement of purpose, that it is time now to transition away from fossils is not a small, insignificant step.

  But what we need to do is actually translate that ambition into action.

• William Brangham:

  One of the other big pledges was this ramp-up of renewables.

  And, as you well know, there is a Green Revolution that is under way. Do you think we will be able to deploy wind and solar and geothermal and hydrogen and battery storage in the full force needed to keep us from dangerously warming this planet?

• Manish Bapna:

  That is in my mind what is kind of most encouraging about this conference and about where we are today, is, we're beginning to see the early signs of a better future, a more inclusive, a more productive, a more resilient future.

  Look at just what's happened in the United States in the last 18 months after the passage of the Inflation Reduction Act. We have seen over $100 billion of announcements of investments in solar, in wind, in electric vehicles. We have seen over 100,000 new jobs created.

  We're beginning to see shovels on the ground. We're starting to see the proof points of real things being built, a better future. And I think that shift is going to happen in a more quicker pace than many of us realize.

• William Brangham:

  One of the other big developments was around this issue known as loss and damage, which is a fund being established to help the developing world deal with the real-world impacts they're having from climate change today.

  Do you think that the developed world is really finally starting to reckon with the damage that our pollution is doing to those nations?

• Manish Bapna:

  It's starting to.

  This is symbolically a big deal, the first time ever where we're starting to set up a fund to help the most vulnerable countries that contributed the least to the climate crisis cope with the impacts.

  But what we need to see is a lot more money go into that fund and a lot more money more generally go from the rich world to the developing world to help with the energy transition, to build resilience. This is not an act of charity. This is an act of justice.

• William Brangham:

  One of the knocks on these COP summits is that there is no enforcement mechanism, that a nation can say, I pledge to cut emissions by X gigatons by Y date, and if they fail to do that there's no way of saying — of holding them to account.

  Do you think we put too much emphasis on these global summits?

• Manish Bapna:

  I think we have to be clear-eyed about what the summits can deliver and what they can't.

  It is a statement of purpose. It is a vision for the future, but it is up to us then to be able to translate that and hold governments accountable. So, now just take the United States, signed up to a language about transitioning away from fossil fuels. Yet the largest oil and gas producer in the world is the United States.

  And if you look at the next 10 years, the greatest increase we will see is in the United States. So how do we actually reconcile that? How do we use that commitment internationally to push for greater ambition domestically to transition from fossils to clean? That's the work that we need to do.

• William Brangham:

  Manish Bapna, president and CEO of the NRDC, great to see you. Thank you.

• Manish Bapna:

  Thank you. Thank you very much.