New documentary explores use of psychedelics to treat combat veterans with PTSD

John Yang:

For many veterans, the battle doesn't end when they come home. The invisible wounds of combat, like post-traumatic stress disorder, can leave some feeling withdrawn or isolated. Tomorrow, a new documentary premieres on Netflix entitled "In Waves and War." It follows a group of former Navy SEALs as they confront their trauma and find healing through an unconventional tool, guided psychedelic therapy.

Man:

This is just one of those points in medicine where you gotta have the courage to jump.

Man:

That medicine takes you right to the crest and you fall off.

John Yang:

Ali Rogin spoke to the film's director, Jon Shenk, and one of the Navy SEALs featured in the film, Marcus Capone.

Ali Rogin:

Thank you both so much for being here. Marcus, the beginning of the film is you and some of your fellow team members talking about the trauma that you experienced, not only on the battlefield, but interestingly, well before you all joined the military. Tell me about that.

Marcus Capone, Co-Founder, VETS:

You know, I think from the film and themes that come out of the film that I think a lot of this started potentially when were, you know, at young ages, child, you know, four or five years old, 10 years old. It's something I think we've never talked about. And I think having traumatic experiences at a young age is potentially what forces us to go into certain careers as a special operator or other high risk or I would say protector type fields.

And for us, it was special operations. And it's something that if you ask any one of us, we would never look back. We would never do something different. We would do it the exact same way.

But you take childhood trauma, you mix it with some wartime trauma, transition trauma, maybe some traumatic brain injuries, and you have a very difficult mental health issue that's very difficult to treat through traditional approaches to care.

Ali Rogin:

And Jon, we hear in the film a team member saying that he wished he had just lost his arm completely when he was injured, rather than have to deal with the more difficult feelings of kind of worthlessness when he was unable to join his brothers in the field.

What have you learned in making this film about the difficulty of dealing with those psychological scars of war?

Jon Shenk, Director, "In Waves and War": Well, in the film you meet these three amazing guys, right? Marcus Capone, Matty Roberts, who I think you're quoting, and D.J. Shipley. They find purpose in their life in the SEAL teams. They find brotherhood, they find love, they find acceptance. They find a reason, as DJ says, to get out of bed each morning, swing feet out of bed.

When they get injured, whether it's physical, you know, like literally losing a limb or mental, a brain injury or something like that, and they can't go back out there anymore. That's a huge change in their lives. Something that is almost impossible to adjust to without the help of your friends and community and family.

Ali Rogin:

And let's talk about how you started down that journey, Marcus. You had hit some dead ends with traditional treatment. And as a bit of a last ditch effort, you try this compound called Ibogaine. It's an experimental psychedelic. What is ibogaine? And tell us about your experience with it.

Marcus Capone:

Ibogaine is considered a psychedelic drug. It's a Schedule 1 in the U.S. so individuals have to travel outside in places where they're legal. Schedule 1 by nature in the U.S. is supposed to have no medical benefit, supposed to have a high risk to abuse.

Ibogaine is the complete opposite we're seeing now with, just through our program, over 1,200 individuals that we've treated and have gotten better. They come to us with substance abuse issues and they stop drinking or they stop their narcotics if they're addicted to opioids, for instance.

This is a clinician guided treatment that is monitored by nurses and doctors. And individuals go in there with really the intent to heal from wounds of war, heal from traumatic brain injury, heal from childhood trauma. Really, whatever it is.

Ali Rogin:

Marcus, we see in this film some really interesting, great animation of these trips that you and your fellow team members go on. But how does this work? How does ibogaine contribute to the healing process?

Marcus Capone:

It gets to the root cause of the issues that are affecting your everyday life. Too many treatments put a band aid fix on it. Many of these antidepressants are really just covering up the symptoms.

Psychedelics get in your unconscious. So it takes potentially five to 10 years of psychotherapy, what a therapist or a psychologist is trying to get to in a few hours. And that's just incredible.

Jon Shenk:

The interesting thing about ibogaine and alley (ph) is that everybody that we talk to, and we talked to dozens and dozens of retired Navy SEALs who've done this treatment describe a very visual experience, a life review that they describe kind of like a movie or a slideshow.

And just as a filmmaker, it was like were kids in a candy store, because we could go and we could animate those details of those experiences and put them on the screen for the audience to try to begin to understand this highly complex thing that scientists are only beginning to understand.

Ali Rogin:

You mentioned the work that you've been doing in this field. So I definitely want to talk about VETS, the organization that you and your wife founded to help connect veterans with this treatment. Tell us about why you decided to really make this your life's work in such a big way.

Marcus Capone:

I was on the standard, you know, I guess, standard treatment protocols that many of us coming back from overseas are on. So for me, seven years of failed antidepressants, talk therapy, too many brain clinics get frustrated.

And for this was a lifeline for me. And all we wanted to do is pay it forward. We have funded, in six years, over 1,200 individuals to receive the exact same treatment. We can't meet the demand. We're overwhelmed with applications. I say we could accept one out of every ten.

Ali Rogin:

Well, and to that point, Jon, I wonder, what do you think needs to change on the policy front on this issue?

Jon Shenk:

Who would have thought that right now the zeitgeist would be basically a pro psychedelic zeitgeist? I think that the American public is ready for this. We showed in waves and war to the Texas state legislature a few months ago. They were poised to pass a bill that would. That would funnel tens of millions of dollars into ibogaine research, which was successfully passed.

California has now followed suit. North Carolina is on the cusp of doing the same. Hopefully, we'll have action at the federal level. I think the film is part of a movement that involves people from many walks of life that are part of this new look at psychedelic medicine.

Ali Rogin:

The film is "In Waves and War." Marcus Capone, John Scenk, thank you so much.

Marcus Capone:

Thank you.

Jon Shenk:

Thank you.