Papal Journey

MARGARET WARNER:

As Pope John Paul II said his farewells in Toronto this morning, there was a cargo lift waiting to hoist him into the plane. But after taking his leave, the Pope gripped the rail of the stairway and walked slowly up the steps. It was a remarkable performance for the frail 82-year-old Pontiff who is said to suffer from arthritis and Parkinson's Disease.

CROWD SHOUTING:

John Paul II, we love you.

MARGARET WARNER:

He was on his way to Central America, the second leg in an 11-day North American trip taking him to Canada, Guatemala, and Mexico. He is flying over the United States, but not stopping here.

ANNOUNCER:

From Sudan…

MARGARET WARNER:

World Youth Day was the prime draw for John Paul's Canadian visit. 200,000 young people from more than 170 countries came to the event– fewer than at previous gatherings of the youth celebrations initiated by John Paul in 1986.

But the crowd swelled to 800,000 for an outdoor papal Mass yesterday. Many braved pre-dawn thunderstorms to secure a spot at a former airbase in Toronto. There, the Pope made his first public comments about the sexual abuse scandal that has rocked the Catholic Church in the United States. In a strong voice, he urged young Catholics not to let the scandal sway their faith, nor to be discouraged by the sins and failings of some Church leaders.

POPE JOHN PAUL II:

The harm done by some priests and religious to the young and vulnerable fills us all with a deep sense of sadness and shame. But think of the vast majority of dedicated and generous priests and religious… (crowd cheering)… whose only wish is to serve and do good.

MARGARET WARNER:

Many followers cheered the Pope's comments.

MIKE DALLESSANDRO:

I think it's probably a good idea that he brought it up. I don't think he should run from problems. I think it's good to own up to them and to face them head on.

MARGARET WARNER:

But some victims advocates in the United States said they were disappointed with the Pontiff's words, saying they wanted an apology for what victims have suffered.

Late today, the Pope arrived in Guatemala City. There, tomorrow he will canonize Central America's first saint, Brother Pedro de San Jose Betancur, a 17th-Century Spanish missionary who founded an order of priests and nuns to help the sick and the poor.

Late tomorrow, the Pope will travel on to Mexico, where he will canonize Juan Diego, an Indian to whom the Virgin Mary is said to have appeared in 1531. He will be Central America's first Indian saint.

MARGARET WARNER:

And for more on the Pope's trip and its significance, we turn to John Allen, Vatican correspondent for the "National Catholic Reporter," an independent newsweekly covering the Church. He's traveling with the Pope, and joins us now from Guatemala City. And Scott Appleby, professor of history and director of the Cushwa Center for the Study of American Catholicism at the University of Notre Dame.

Welcome to you both.

John Allen, why did the Pope choose this time and this accomplice, yesterday, to finally speak publicly on the sexual abuse scandal?

JOHN ALLEN, National Catholic Reporter:

Well, if I may say first of all I think the word "publicly" is a little deceptive. I mean, the Pope has spoken twice before since these scandals broke: one in his Holy Thursday letter to priests in March, again in an address to the American Cardinals in Rome in April; both of these were in a sense public documents, although they weren't delivered before audiences, and so in that sense I think he has spoken publicly in a manner of speaking.

I think the terms of why he chose this audience Vatican officials indicated to us that it seemed almost unavoidable he would do. I mean, this was a gathering of 250,000 or so Catholic youth in North America including 55,000 young people from the United States and 125 American Bishops, and so not to address the issue easily could have been interpreted publicly as avoidance.

I would add that I had an opportunity to put the question to the Pope spokesperson on the flight on the way into Guatemala today; he told us this was a decision of the Pope to make the comments and that the decision was reached about three weeks ago, Margaret.

MARGARET WARNER:

And, as you noted you have been parsing what he had to say in letters and speaking to the Cardinals in the past, did what he say yesterday, was that a continuation of what he's been saying or was it any kind of shift?

JOHN ALLEN:

Well, I think there was a slight shift in that the emphasis in the statement was more on the defense of what he called the vast majority of priests who have only a desire to serve and do good as opposed to the acknowledgment this is a source of sorrow and shape.

You may recall when he spoke to the American Cardinals in April, he acknowledged in that case for the first time the sexual abuse rightly considered by society a crime, I think the emphasis more there was on acknowledging the depth and gravity of the problem and the need for remedies both in terms of cooperation with criminal authorities and also in terms of the Church getting its own house in order.

It seemed to us in the press core the message he delivered in Toronto was both a continuation of that idea, that is, an acknowledgment that there had been serious wrongdoing inside the Church, but also a ringing defense of that solid majority of priests who were not guilty. And you may have noted it was that aspect of the Pope's message yesterday that drew a really rousing response from the crowd.

When the Pope shifted from saying, this wrongdoing fills us with sadness and shame, he then stopped and then bellowed out this "but," indicating a transition to a defense of the good priests. And I've never heard a conjunction that has drawn such an enthusiastic response from a crowd before. And so it appeared that that was the new emphasis the Pope wanted to bring yesterday during the Sunday Mass, Margaret.

MARGARET WARNER:

We could certainly hear it on the tape we just saw.

Professor Appleby, what did you make both of the venue of the Pope's comments and what he said?

SCOTT APPLEBY, University of Notre Dame: Well, it was entirely appropriate for the Pope to address this scandal in that context, because it was a violation of innocence of youth — young people abused and they were by priests. But this Pope is looking to the future and his message is hope — and the identification of Christ with the Church, he said if you love Jesus, love the Church.

And so he had to mention the shame and that was an appropriate word, and the sadness, and to acknowledge the sin of the scandal. But his message is on the future, on hope, and upon those… that vast majority of priests and religious who perform heroically every day.

MARGARET WARNER:

Now, as we reported some advocates for victims' groups and some victims were critical of what he had to so say, so they didn't go far enough. What impact do you think — if any — his words will have?

SCOTT APPLEBY:

His words will have great impact among the youth. And I think Catholics in the United States welcome any kind of direct reference by the Pope to this scandal and they recognize also what he's doing.

He's focusing on the gospel and upon all the good that the Church does. I think many of us would hope that in some context the Pope will address the problem in Church leadership among some of the Bishops who are also co-responsible for this situation. He hasn't done that. Nor did he mention in this reference the good lay ministers and lay leaders of the Church who also should draw applause from the people, the young people at Toronto.

MARGARET WARNER:

John Allen, now of course you are in Guatemala City; Guatemala and Mexico City his only two stops, why this focus on Central America in this trip?

JOHN ALLEN:

Well, I think the big picture is that Central America — Latin America is the region of the world or one of the regions of the world which Catholicism is the most dynamic, almost one in two Catholics, that's 50 percent of Catholics in the world today, live in Latin America; it's also a region of the Church that has enormous energy; and that is one of the reasons that a lot of analysts are projecting that the next Pope may will come from Latin America.

But I think if you tighten the focus in on these two countries a bit, I think there are a couple of other layers of subtext here. One is that they are both countries in which Protestant Evangelicals have been making inroads into what have traditionally been very solidly Catholic populations and I think the Pope through his physical presence and through his show of support for the local hierarchies wants to help them in their efforts to system the tide.

I think it's also not without significance that of the beatifications and canonizations he's coming to do, two of them are of indigenous persons. And another is of someone who is known for his work among indigenous persons. As you know within Latin America there has been a debate in recent years as to whether or not the arrival of Christianity marked in a sense an assault on indigenous cultures, whether indigenous persons sold out their cultures in a way by adopting Christianity.

And I think the Pope's message is that it is not at all the case that one has to choose between the message of Christ and one's culture – that in fact Christ helps one discover the true depths through significance of one's culture. And so I think he's here to bring that message as well.

MARGARET WARNER:

Professor Appleby, how much of a challenge do you think the Evangelical Protestant movement is to the Catholic Church in Central America and why that's so after so many centuries of this region being so Catholic?

SCOTT APPLEBY:

Over the last 20 years it's become a very significant challenge. In Mexico only about 12 percent of the population is Evangelical but in Guatemala now about a quarter of the population converted to Evangelical Protestantism.

The reasons for this are many, including the fact that there are fewer priests; there's about one priest for every 8,000 worshipers in Central America, whereas, there's one Protestant pastor for every four hundred. That's in part because the Protestant Churches – the way their church is structured and how they understand ministry — they can raise up indigenous peoples right into the ministry. They don't go to long sessions — many years in the seminary. They also have worked very hard – the Evangelicals – in translating the bible into local languages, which the Catholic Church is really just catching up with.

So the priests themselves are few in number; they don't speak often the languages, sometimes they do. But they are not as numerous and they don't seem to be at least as the Evangelicals portray them as tuned into the local culture. Also celibacy is in some of these cultures hard to understand and under some suspicion. Finally the Protestants make a very strong point of bringing men back into the Church, turning them away from alcohol and allowing them to set up a local Church. Catholics don't operate quite that way.

MARGARET WARNER:

And how do you see the significance for the Pope in canonizing these two new saints both as John Allen pointed out not only being from central America but from the indigenous people of Central America, particularly the Mexican who is… was an Indian?

SCOTT APPLEBY:

Not to cast this in terms of Protestant – Catholic competition, but what Catholics are trying to say in part, is we recognize, respect, honor, worship, and sanctify the local, the indigenous, Juan Diego, someone who doesn't have to leave behind his local culture in order to become a saint of a universal, international, two millennial old Church.

So what the Pope is trying to say is, we fully embrace this culture. We recognize that God is at work here and has lifted up people in holiness and to recognize that in the context of the Virgin of Guadalupe – Christ's mother — already present in the culture is a powerful message that's an attempt to counteract what is sometimes perceived the distance of the priest or of some of them from the local culture.

MARGARET WARNER:

John Allen, finally, briefly before we go, there has been a lot of attention to the Pope's health; how has it appeared to you on this trip in comparison to earlier?

JOHN ALLEN:

Well, I think that's another part of the sort of hidden agenda of these World Youth Day festivals, Margaret, that in part I think they're extraordinarily psychologically important for the Pope. He draws great life and great energy from them.

This is a man who has never a Church bureaucrat; he was always a pastor and he drew a special pleasure and sort of nutrition — in a way spiritual nutrition from his contact with the young and I think he drew the same sort of rejuvenation from Canada.

It will be very interesting to see how that holds up on the Guatemala and Mexico legs of the journey we saw today, when he touched down some two hours ago – that unlike in Canada, he did not walk down the steps; he used the lift from the rear of the aircraft and was brought around on his platform.

And his presentation here at the welcoming ceremony seemed — although he did not notice – visibly — significantly fatigued — did seem more sluggish and less buoyant than you saw him in his public events in Canada.

So while I think he looked really much better than we have seen him for several months during the World Youth Day Events, as I say, we will certainly have our eyes on him over the next couple of days to see how he holds up on the next two lets of the trip.

MARGARET WARNER:

All right, John Allen, Scott Appleby, thank you both.