Sen. Durbin discusses deadlock in Congress over Ukraine, Israel aid and border security

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• Amna Nawaz:

  Days of tension Capitol Hill culminated today in Republicans rejecting a measure to move ahead on additional funding for Ukraine and Israel.

  Republicans have been insisting that foreign aid be paired with major changes to border security, but both sides of the aisle failed to find consensus and now billions of dollars in aid is stalled until lawmakers find a way forward.

  In the middle of all this is Majority Whip and Senator from Illinois Dick Durbin, who joins us now.

  Senator Durbin, welcome back. Thanks for joining us.

• Sen. Richard Durbin (D-IL):

  Good to be with you, Amna.

• Amna Nawaz:

  So what does today's vote mean? There's no aid for Ukraine this year then?

• Sen. Richard Durbin :

  It's a setback, but it doesn't mean that we're not going to send aid to Ukraine.

  The speaker of the Parliament of Ukraine was in my office today. He told me what is obvious. If we don't provide assistance to Ukraine, the likelihood of winning the war against Putin is diminished dramatically. And every single day, courageous Ukrainians are giving their lives to defend their country against this war (INAUDIBLE)

• Sen. Richard Durbin :

  It really means that we can't fail to provide the assistance Ukraine needs. We have got to stand with them, and we have got to do it before the end of the year.

• Amna Nawaz:

  So how do you do that before the end of the year, Senator? We heard President Biden say earlier he's open to significant changes on border policy. Do you share that view?

• Sen. Richard Durbin :

  Yes, I do. Let's be open-minded about it. I don't want to do something that is inconsistent with our country's values, but I recognize the obvious.

  We are being overwhelmed at our border by people seeking to come into the United States. We have got to adjust the standards that are used at the border in a reasonable, humane way, but we have got to be open to change, Democrats, as well as Republicans.

• Amna Nawaz:

  So, what are some of those changes you would be willing to compromise on that you weren't before? Would they be tightening asylum rules, for example?

• Sen. Richard Durbin :

  Well, I would take a look at the asylum language standards, but I'd be very careful, because there are people who are genuinely escaping situations where their lives are in danger, and we don't want to ignore that possibility.

  But I also want to make sure that we have a system that makes sense. If I told you the countries that are producing immigrants at our border in the south of the United States, you would be amazed, thousands coming from places like Uzbekistan. You think to yourself, that is not what I expect to hear.

  What is happening is an obvious move from around the world to use the United States as a refuge.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Maybe we should knowledge seems to be a big crowd behind you there. We're hearing some applause. Thank you for bearing with us. I hope you can hear us.

  But I should ask you too, as part of those talks, what about the dreamers, those DACA recipients who were brought to the U.S. as children? You have said that you will fight for them repeatedly, but they were not included in these last rounds of talks. What's your message to them today?

• Sen. Richard Durbin :

  Well, I can just tell you, I think that's a serious mistake.

  I have been fighting for these dreamers for over 20 years since I introduced the legislation. These young people, 800,000 of them or more, should be part of America's future. And we have to do everything we can to make that happen. If I get a chance to be part of this immigration negotiation, and I hope I will, I will definitely include that request.

• Amna Nawaz:

  I want to ask you too about the aid to Israel.

  A significant portion of the emergency aid requested by the Biden administration is for that security assistance. As you well know, since that brutal October 7 attack, Israel's response has killed more than 15,000 Palestinians. The majority are believed to be women and children.

  And your colleague Bernie Sanders is now saying it's absolutely irresponsible to give Israel unconditional aid. Do you believe that aid should be conditioned, if it means it could save Palestinian lives?

• Sen. Richard Durbin :

  Yes, we should have basic conditions. And if we're going to provide military assistance to any nation, the United States should make it clear what the standards of conduct are that we expect.

  And in the situation in Israel, there's no question they have a right to defend themselves, that what happened on October 7 was an atrocity. But we also are staring at a humanitarian crisis of epic proportions currently in that area, with the Palestinian people losing thousands and thousands of their own; 70 percent of the victims are women and children, an unheard-of number.

  So we have got to say to the Israelis, yes, defend yourself, yes, make sure your country is safe, but do it in a humane fashion.

• Amna Nawaz:

  So what does a basic condition look like to you?

• Sen. Richard Durbin :

  The basic condition would just establish standards for every country that receives military equipment from the United States, that they make sure that they don't focus on civilian casualties, but only military targets, that they are careful in the proportionality that they use in using bombs of a certain size, for example, and that there would be a serious effort to take precautions to protect the innocent protect in that country.

  These are the standards of humane conduct in war. We should expect nothing less.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Senator, I have to ask you.

  Our colleague Lisa Desjardins, who I know you know, has been reporting on what we have seen on Capitol Hill this week. Yesterday, we saw senators yelling during a briefing with administration officials, several Republican senators walking out. Emotions around the war are certainly high. We know immigration is a white-hot issue.

  And we have just learned, of course, Speaker — former Speaker Kevin McCarthy is retiring at the end of the year. I just want to ask you. The climate on Capitol Hill right now, have you ever seen anything like this?

• Sen. Richard Durbin :

  No, I haven't.

  And I will just tell you that it's attributable to one man's politics, which, unfortunately, has created a situation I have never seen before in all the time that I have served in Congress. But there are still people of goodwill trying to solve real problems facing America and our friends.

  I just want to add that it was a terrible meeting we had yesterday. We had a much better meeting today. I'm hopeful that, despite the gloomy scenario we seem to face, we can still find a way to help the Ukrainians and come out with a good result for the American people.

• Amna Nawaz:

  So, do you believe there will be a deal to move that forward, to move the aid for Ukraine forward before you leave for Christmas?

• Sen. Richard Durbin :

  Listen, I'm an optimist. I wouldn't be in politics if I weren't. And I believe that, if we work at it, before the end of the year, we can do the right thing.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Senator Dick Durbin joining us tonight from Capitol Hill.

  Senator, thank you. Always good to see you.

• Sen. Richard Durbin :

  Thanks, Amna.