Tamara Keith and Amy Walter on Democrats split over how to oppose Trump’s agenda

Amna Nawaz:

The Trump administration's deportation agenda is causing some fractures among Democrats as they consider if and how to respond.

For analysis of that and the other headlines, we turn now to our Politics Monday team. That is Amy Walter of The Cook Political Report With Amy Walter and Tamara Keith of NPR.

Great to see you both.

Amy Walter, The Cook Political Report:

Good to be here.

Amna Nawaz:

So when we spoke with Maryland Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen last week. It was right before he was allowed to meet with the Maryland man who was deported to El Salvador, Kilmar Abrego Garcia. He was mistakenly deported by the Trump administration, by their own admission.

And, as you both see, how Democrats handle this issue, whether they even touch it has divided some in the party. Here's how California Governor Gavin Newsom framed it recently.

Gov. Gavin Newsom (D-CA):

This is the distraction of the day. This is the debate they want. This is their 80/20 issue, as they have described it, you know, those that believe in the rule of law defending it. But it's a tough case, because people, really, are they defending MS-13?

Amna Nawaz:

And here now is how Senator Van Hollen responded on Sunday's "Meet the Press."

Sen. Chris Van Hollen (D-MD):

I don't think it's ever wrong to stand up for the Constitution. And this is not about one man. I think Americans are tired of elected officials or politicians who are all finger to the wind. And anybody who can't stand up for the Constitution and the right of view process doesn't deserve to lead.

Amna Nawaz:

Amy, what does all of this say to you about where Democrats are right now?

Amy Walter:

Right.

Well, where Senator Van Hollen is, is where so many Democratic — especially Democratic voters, are sitting today, which is they are frustrated with what they see is ineffective and inadequate response to Donald Trump and many of the actions that he's taken.

When you hear from Gavin Newsom, what he's saying, the governor of California, is, look, just talk about the economy. That's where we're winning. Donald Trump's numbers are really bad on the economy. They're good on immigration.

But the whole issue is really how you ask the question on immigration and where the fight ultimately — what the fight ultimately ends up being about. If you ask voters, do you think Donald Trump's doing a good job on the economy (sic), generally, yes, he gets positive marks there, much higher than he is getting right now in the economy.

But when you ask specifically about some of the things either that he's doing or saying that he's doing, including one that asks the question, do you think that he should be able to deport people if a court order tells him to stop it, overwhelming majority say, no, he shouldn't be allowed to do that.

So the question now is where this fight is happening. Is it happening about the rule of law, where Democrats would like it to be? Or is it where Donald Trump thinks he is the strongest, believes he has a mandate, which is it's going to be about being able to deport criminals, and in the election in 2020 — or 2024, this was the issue that constantly brought me back into contention.

Amna Nawaz:

Tam, how do you see it?

Tamara Keith, National Public Radio:

Yes, I mean, I think that this is a nuanced case that is being fought in an environment without nuance.

And so you have the Trump White House very happily having this fight. The RNC earlier today sent out a thing calling, DEMS-13 or whatever, saying that Democrats support gang members, and the Trump White House has labeled them terrorists. They aren't just gang members. They're terrorists.

And so that is ground that the White House is happy to have a fight on. And they argue that Abrego Garcia is not a perfect person. And, in fact, Democrats, I think, would concede that often the people that get deserved due process aren't necessarily perfect people.

And so Democrats, though, are in a place where they are having to make an argument about due process and the Constitution when, as Amy says, the last election, lots of people made arguments about the Constitution. But those arguments ultimately were not as salient as arguments about be very worried about the state of your country and be very worried about the state of your pocketbook.

Amna Nawaz:

Yes, on the related issue here that Tam raises, Amy, the Supreme Court did have to step in on a related case about immigration. It is temporarily blocking deportations President Trump is carrying out under that wartime Alien Enemies Act, which feeds this bigger question around President Trump versus the courts, the question of, is he abiding, will he continue to comply by court orders?

Amy Walter:

Right.

Amna Nawaz:

We hear a lot about this from constitutional law experts and from Democrats. Is that the kind of thing Americans are paying attention to?

Amy Walter:

Well, no, because not even constitutional law experts can agree on what exactly the line is between a constitutional crisis and a constitutional challenge, right?

Are we at a boiling point? Are we sort of simmering? Is the pot now completely blowing up? Where I think it comes down to voters, that the question really, as I said, is at what point do these stories tend to break through?

And this is where this is something of a gamble that Trump is taking, which is he believes that because this person who was sent to El Salvador shouldn't have been sent there by the law, he's not a perfect person, voters are going to side with him, and that all the people who are getting deported are going to — or many of the people getting deported may fall into similar categories, where it's going to be hard to make the case that these are perfect people.

But if you start to see more and more, and we're seeing it, conservative legal scholars and others and judges come out and say, this is a rule of law issue, that may change perceptions of Trump on this very issue.

Amna Nawaz:

Yes.

Amy Walter:

In 2017, he wasn't that popular on immigration. He's more popular today on it.

Tamara Keith:

Yes, in a sense, he has moved public opinion on immigration, as he has on some other things.

Amy Walter:

Yes.

Tamara Keith:

But one issue — and I think this overlaps with some of the other things — is, this was sort of sloppy.

They admitted they made a mistake.

Amna Nawaz:

In the deportation.

Tamara Keith:

In the deportation. And then they're doubling down on it. And there are other instances of people who are in that prison in El Salvador where their lawyers are saying, hey, wait, this wasn't a gang member.

Amy Walter:

Right.

Tamara Keith:

So, inasmuch as this becomes an issue of, well, we support the idea, but could they be a little less sloppy about it, are they carrying out their policy in a way that's effective, if the narrative becomes more about chaos than about efficient implementation of the law, then that could also become a problem for the White House.

Amna Nawaz:

And, Tam, speaking of chaos, this reported chaos, according to some people, I want to pick up where Lisa's earlier reporting left off, which is the scrutiny and the questions around the defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, now that it's been revealed he used that unsecure messaging app, a commercial messaging app, to again share sensitive military information.

You now have a Republican member of Congress, Don Bacon, stepping in, saying — suggesting at least that Mr. Hegseth should step down, calling him an amateur. What do you expect to see happen next?

Tamara Keith:

I think we could hear from other Republicans in Congress. We could also have a rallying around Mr. Hegseth. At this point, the White House is, at least publicly, digging in, though the caveat I will deliver that I have delivered many times before is that people have President Trump's full and total support until they don't. And that can happen very quickly.

And if he becomes more of a problem than it's worth, then the president could easily change his mind.

Amna Nawaz:

This is another one of those stories, very nuanced in its details in a nuanced environment.

Amy Walter:

That's right.

Amna Nawaz:

Is this the kind of thing resonating with people?

Amy Walter:

Well, I do think it goes back to that issue of chaos, right?

Does it look like the administration's is tackling things deliberately, decisively, or it looks sort of haphazard? I think the other difference between this case and, say, other times in Trump's first administration where there were personnel challenges is that this is coming basically from inside the house, right?

It's loyalist on loyalist versus sort of the never-Trump faction or the establishment faction against the Trump loyalists. So this makes it, I think, even a little harder for Hegseth to hold on because many of the people coming out against him and arguing that he should be let go are those who are also loyal to Trump and had supported Hegseth in the past.

Amna Nawaz:

We will see where it goes next.

Amy Walter, Tamara Keith, always great to see you both. Thank you.

Tamara Keith:

Good to see you.

Amy Walter:

You're welcome.