Trump says Democrats should be arrested for urging military to refuse unlawful orders

Amna Nawaz:

Half-a-dozen Democrats in Congress with military and intelligence backgrounds are urging current service members to ignore the chain of command if they're given unlawful orders.

Rep. Chris Deluzio (D-PA):

Right now, the threats to our Constitution aren't just coming from abroad…

Rep. Jason Crow (D-CO):

… but from right here at home.

Sen. Mark Kelly (D-AZ):

Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders.

Sen. Elissa Slotkin (D-MI):

You can refuse illegal orders.

Rep. Chris Deluzio:

You must refuse illegal orders.

Sen. Elissa Slotkin:

No one has to carry out orders that violate the law…

Rep. Chrissy Houlahan (D-PA):

… or our Constitution.

Amna Nawaz:

Now, they didn't specify which orders they consider unlawful, but President Trump has fired back, writing on social media these members of Congress should be — quote — "arrested and put on trial," saying their actions are seditious behavior from traitors that is — quote — "punishable by death."

Congressman Jason Crow of Colorado is a retired Army Ranger and one of the Democrats you just heard from in that video. He joins me now.

Congressman, welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us.

Rep. Jason Crow:

Hi, Amna.

Amna Nawaz:

So, Karoline Leavitt, the White House press secretary, was asked about all this in the briefing today. I just want to play for you her response.

Question:

Just to be clear, does the president want to execute members of Congress?

Karoline Leavitt, White House Press Secretary:

No. Let's be clear about what the president is responding to. You have sitting members of the United States Congress who conspired together to orchestrate a video message to members of the United States military, to active-duty service members, to members of the national security apparatus, encouraging them to defy the president's lawful orders.

Amna Nawaz:

Congressman, I just want to get your response to the latest from the White House on this.

Rep. Jason Crow:

Well, first off, Karoline Leavitt is just lying.

We specifically said to unlawful orders — that they don't have to obey unlawful orders, which actually is what the Constitution says, what the Uniform Code of Military Justice says and what we were trained on when we were in uniform as well.

This administration wants people to think that simply reminding people of their oath and what the law requires is somehow criminal and should result in treason and hanging, because, secondly, that is what the president said this morning. He called for a treason trial. He called for our arrest. And he called specifically for our execution by hanging.

Amna Nawaz:

So, to be specific here, then, Congressman, which unlawful orders are you asking military members to refuse? What did you see that prompted you and others to make this video?

Rep. Jason Crow:

The point of this video was not to point to specific orders. It's to prepare our service members, our young men and women, who are going to be put in very difficult positions in the years ahead to understand their oath and their obligation.

And there's plenty of reason to be concerned. Donald Trump actually asked whether he could shoot protesters in the leg during the protests at Lafayette Square. Donald Trump has said he's going to go to war with Chicago and send troops into our cities, several of which have already been declared illegal by federal courts.

So there's plenty of reason to be concerned. And we want to start a public conversation about what the obligation of our troops really is, in the very same way, I will say, that I did before I deployed my paratrooper platoon to Iraq in 2003, because once you get to the point where they are faced with an instant decision, it's too late if you haven't already had that conversation with them.

Amna Nawaz:

Well, Congressman, for military members who are trying to navigate this now, I want to put to you what I heard from the director of The Orders Project, which is a nonprofit that offers legal advice to military service members who are unclear about their orders or worried about them.

And they have been seeing an uptake in calls recently. But this person also said that any service member who disobeys an order on the basis that it's unlawful does run the risk that a military judge will disagree. And then they have to face the consequences.

Are you saying to military members they should take on that risk?

Rep. Jason Crow:

Well, listen, every military member takes on that risk. Service is hard. Being in the military is very hard.

So what we want to do is send a message that members of Congress, their fellow veterans, we stand by them, we see them, and we are reminding them of their oath.

Amna Nawaz:

Congressman, you have served honorably. We thank you for your service. So did most in that video.

But so did retired Four-Star General Barry McCaffrey. And he had this to say in response to your video. He said: "This action by Democrats is unwarranted and dangerous. Focus on your own responsibilities in Congress to oppose military actions you believe are wrong or illegal. Support the judicial system to push back. Don't call on the military to stop Trump."

What do you say to that?

Rep. Jason Crow:

Well, we're not calling on the military to stop Trump. We're calling on the military to fulfill oaths.

And, unfortunately, I think General McCaffrey doesn't understand the moment that we're in, the challenges that this administration is presenting to the troops. And I think he doesn't understand the time and the challenges that leaders face right now.

Amna Nawaz:

Do you not trust that the courts will continue to push back or slow or stop Trump policies as they have been doing?

Rep. Jason Crow:

They may. They may not. And even when courts issue orders, over a third of the time, this administration disregards lawful orders of the courts, right? They simply disregard court orders time and time again.

So my job as a member of Congress is to do everything possible to uphold the Constitution and to defend this country. I don't rely on anybody to help me fulfill my duties, right? This is a project the entire country needs to undertake. Courts have an obligation. Citizens have an obligation. The military has an obligation. Law enforcement has an obligation. And I have mine.

Amna Nawaz:

We saw Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer say today he's asked for special protections for Senators Slotkin and Kelly, who appeared with you in that video, after the president's post about seditions. Are you worried about your own safety? Have you seen any increase in threats since the president's post?

Rep. Jason Crow:

Yes, we have received threats. And we take those very seriously.

I mean, this is actually making the point that the president continues to incite violence in vitriolic rhetoric and partisanship over and over again. And it's very serious stuff, right? People sometimes act on what Donald Trump and others say, right?

They certainly did on January 6. So I understand the threats that we face right now. I take those seriously. But I will not be intimidated. But what Donald Trump wants is, he wants to use fear and intimidation to silence dissent, to silence opposition, and to silence speech.

And I am not allowed — I'm not going to allow that to happen, because the moment we allow that to happen is the moment we lose our democracy. And I will not allow it to happen. Fear is contagious, but so is courage. And I intend to lead.

Amna Nawaz:

Congressman Jason Crow of Colorado, thank you for making the time to speak with us. We appreciate it.

Rep. Jason Crow:

Thank you.