Two Senators Debate U.S. Foreign Policy in Israel, Sudan and Russia

MARGARET WARNER:

How should the U.S. respond to the sudden flare-ups of international hotspots like the latest three this week? For that I'm joined by Republican Sen. Pat Roberts of Kansas, who sits on the Armed Services Committee and is chairman of the Select Intelligence Committee, and Democratic Senator Chris Dodd of Connecticut, who sits on the Foreign Relations Committee.

Welcome to you both.

Well as we just saw in the taped reports….

SEN. PAT ROBERTS:

Thank you, Margaret.

MARGARET WARNER:

…we've got critical situations. I mean they're ongoing but hit new crisis points: The Chechen-Russian and in Darfur and of course Arab-Israeli. Let me start with you, Sen. Roberts. First of all, does the U.S. have its national interest at stake in all three of these?

SEN. PAT ROBERTS:

I think it does. I think on the Russian situation, this is a repeat of the Chechen problem. Putin has said it's war. As a matter of fact, he is getting support from Chirac and from Schroeder and from NATO. They have coalesced in regards to condemning this violence. Two airliners down and then the school hostage business.

There's a fellow named Basayev who is a terrorist who is behind the theater takeover. And so consequently I think in terms of our NATO response and also our other allies, we know that we have to be unified against this kind of terrorism.

MARGARET WARNER:

All right. And how about the other two just briefly? We'll come back to each one individually. But, I mean, are U.S. national interests at stake in Darfur – obviously in the Arab-Israeli situation?

SEN. PAT ROBERTS:

Well, the U.N. Security Council gave them 30 days, the government of Sudan, to say to this militia, the Janjaweed militia, who is causing all sorts of problems in regards to refugees and civilians, and they're killing them, and basically what we've asked the African Security Council for 2,000 peacekeepers. Kofi Annan has asked for 3,000 in regards to U.N. peacekeepers but he's had very few takers. The one thing about peacekeepers is if there isn't any peace to be kept, well, you become a target so that's a problem.

MARGARET WARNER:

All right. Sen. Dodd, do you think, just broadly first of all, that U.S. national interests are at stake in these areas? That they are things that the U.S. has to get pretty deeply involved in?

SEN. CHRIS DODD:

Well, I do. I agree with Pat Roberts on this point here. Certainly there is a linkage here that is undeniable in all of these cases. In most of them we're dealing with the elements of extremism. And there have been new forces of extremism unleashed. And I think there's a growing sense of confidence among some of these extremists that they can get away with these things.

And certainly the United States, because of our own immediate self-interests, obviously, since we're so much of a target as we've seen over the past number of years, have no other recourse but to respond to this.

But clearly it also points out, I think very dramatically, the importance of building the kind of international relations that are absolutely essential if you're going to deal with the transnational problems of terrorism: the relationships between Chechnya, the Arab-Israeli conflict, what's going on in Iraq, these suicide bombers. They're isolated events but they're connected and I think the importance of that point should not be lost here.

MARGARET WARNER:

I didn't mean to interrupt you. Let me stay with you, Sen. Dodd and let's take them one by one since we have to get through all three fairly briefly, but on Darfur, what more should the U.S. do, what more would a Kerry administration do than the Bush administration is?

SEN. CHRIS DODD:

Well, John Kerry has laid out very specific points in terms of our response. You've got to build the kind– take the leadership role here and not only get the U.N., which by the way is being ridiculed at the Republican Convention, but to get international organizations to step up and meet this responsibility.

Fifty thousand people have died, a million have been displaced. The U.N. estimates that a million people could die in Darfur if we don't respond to this by being much more aggressive. Now we've sent Secretary Powell to the region. But you've got to do far more than just send envoys out there. You have got to really insist that this genocidal behavior is going to stop or you'll have another Rwanda on your hands during this watch.

MARGARET WARNER:

Do you think the Bush administration could be doing more, should be doing more?

SEN. PAT ROBERTS:

Well, I think everybody ought to do more. I think that's the kind of mission that Jim Jones, who is the supreme allied commander in regards to NATO, says this is the kind of thing that NATO could go out of country. I'm not sure they're going to do that in terms of a vote. You have to have a vote. But on the U.N., you know, we gave them 30 days and obviously the government of Sudan has sort of, you know, thumbed our nose at that.

We have a situation again where we asked– well, we didn't ask, we demanded– and said African Security Council step up; it's your country. It's your area. It's your regional stability. We need about 2,000. There's been a deafening quiet in that regard.

I don't know what the Security Council is going to do. A Kerry administration or a Bush administration, both are going to try to work diplomatically, be very aggressive, try to put a stop to this. Now add in Israel. We had six months of a situation where it was relatively quiet. Now we've got two bus bombings. Now we have got the Israelis really going after the Syrians and it's the same kind of situation.

Don't forget Iran where they are now enriching their uranium up to the point that they could have, in a short time, enough uranium enriched for five nuclear devices, that means you have to have resolve. And that's why I think the Bush administration will be successful in spelling that out at the convention and to the American people and why the president will be successful in November. I had to toss in a little politics for you.

MARGARET WARNER:

We want a little politics here.

SEN. CHRIS DODD:

Shocked me.

MARGARET WARNER:

Sen. Dodd, go to the Chechen-Russian situation. Is there anything more a Kerry administration could do to help out — at least quell the violence there than the Bush administration is trying to do?

SEN. CHRIS DODD:

Again, I'm getting a lot of rhetoric here about this but there's very specific actions that can be taken. We ought to be asking and demanding that the U.N. declare, for instance in Darfur, that this is a Chapter 7 under the U.N. charter– Chapter 7 situation, which requires military intervention in effect to stop what's going on, to provide the meaningful assistance so they can really respond to this situation and set up tribunals to begin to attack and try, rather, these people for war crimes.

MARGARET WARNER:

And what would you do in the Russian-Chechen situation?

SEN. CHRIS DODD:

I think clearly again we need to form the kind of coalitions other than just rhetorically supporting what Russia is trying to deal with here, but to offer our assistance, to develop the kind of inter-cooperation between our intelligence agencies, to share information about people: where they're getting the resources, where they're getting the arms, where they're getting the support financially to engage in these kinds of attacks. I don't think we're doing enough of that. There seems to be reluctance to really reach out.

Again, I come back to the point, you can't talk about these issues in isolation. There is a connection. And the failure of the Bush administration to embrace what the first Bush administration, 41, did, and that is to build the kind of international strong coalitions to fight this terrorism problem, and we're refusing to do that. And so in Chechnya again we're given the kind of rhetorical concern about these issues but we have done nothing specifically about this problem working with the Russians in connection with the other issues we face in the Middle East and elsewhere.

MARGARET WARNER:

All right. Take on that broader point head on, Sen. Roberts, that these all are situations in which the Bush administration has not used alliances, in effect has disrespected alliances.

SEN. PAT ROBERTS:

Well, let's go back to Mr. Schroeder in Germany, who ran on a pacifist ticket and obviously he wouldn't have been elected had he supported the military activities in Iraq. Now he's changing his mind a little bit because he sees the situation in regards to Russia.

Let's take, say, Chirac. Now he's upset, very much upset, because they passed a law in regards to head scarves for young women who are Muslims in France and now finds out that there are two journalists being held hostage.

And then you got to go to Putin, and Putin at that point said, well, you know, we have a pretty good deal with oil-for-food and we have some other considerations.

I don't know what it is that John Kerry could whisper in all three of those people's ears that would have made them change their mind. Now we are making some very specific recommendations. Our intelligence worldwide community is sharing things much better. We're in contact with the Russians. We're offering to be of help.

MARGARET WARNER:

You think even in the Chechen situation?

SEN. PAT ROBERTS:

Oh, very much so. I mean, this isn't anything new in terms of the Chechen War with the Russians. They just had an election and the major general was elected president. And the Chechens don't like it. They want the Russians to withdraw. And so in doing so they had that same fellow who also took over the theater.

This is a very difficult task but the thing that has changed now is that NATO has finally come around and said, you know, this is not a stabilizing situation. Thank goodness NATO is finally getting itself alerted to the fact that they can't just rely on the United States for their defense, it has to be a true alliance. And I think that will happen.

MARGARET WARNER:

Let me ask you both quickly, Sen. Dodd first of all, the difference in how President Kerry would handle the Arab-Israeli conflict at least to quell the violence.

SEN. CHRIS DODD:

Not just talk about the road map but he'd go to work on it. Again this has been a complaint you've heard over and over again. I'm not going to say something startling new to you here but there were some real opportunities at the end of the Clinton administration that didn't work out at Camp David and certainly some major problems there, Arafat being primarily the one that blew up an opportunity to maybe bring some peace to the region. But since that time, there has been neglect, benign neglect of this area. We haven't paid attention to it in my view. You can't walk away from it. And too often that's been if case.

I listened to the Republican Convention last night. I heard speakers get standing ovations when they suggest somehow we're not going to be associated with the U.N. system. What does that message to the rest of the world we're trying to solve these problems together — when we say collectively at a national convention by a major political party in the 21st Century, we're no longer really interested in working with international bodies? That's the reaction of the people reading these things.

In the Middle East crisis here, this requires tremendously hard work. John Kerry will roll up his sleeves the day he is sworn into office and go to work to try and bring about peace, not just talk about it but become deeply engaged in it. That has not happened in the Bush administration.

MARGARET WARNER:

Your rebuttal, Senator.

SEN. PAT ROBERTS:

Well, there's nothing that hurts the truth like stretching it. Basically, you know, the U.N. passes a resolution and another resolution and another resolution and another resolution. Here's Kofi Annan. We have 80 observers there in regards to Darfur. Now he wants 3,000. I haven't seen anybody raise their hand up. So I don't know what it is that President Kerry, in that position, could do to convince the U.N. to really take specific action.

There's been complaints in regards to Russia in the Security Council. It has to be relevant. You have to back it up with action. And simply because if you get into a very tough situation– and the war on terrorism is very, very difficult and people don't go along– you just can't wish it away. You can't say I'll roll up my sleeves with a few adjectives and adverbs and smother people with the milk of human kindness and they'll go along. They won't. It has to be in their international interest. I think now, finally, the international community understands, with all of these flare ups, it is an international war against terrorism. And we're doing the best very we can.

MARGARET WARNER:

I want to ask you each both– like a three word answer on this.

SEN. PAT ROBERTS:

Three words; I don't know if we can do that.

MARGARET WARNER:

Starting with you, Sen. Roberts, do either — any of these three crises have the potential to flare up in such a way that it could affect the election?

SEN. PAT ROBERTS:

Oh, I think it's part– Okay, I've said three words. I think it's– Don't ever ask a senator for three words. Come on. Especially me or Chris.

MARGARET WARNER:

Three sentences.

SEN. PAT ROBERTS:

Okay, three sentences. Yes it has an impact because it affects Russia, and what they do basically affects international interests. Yes, of course, it does in regards to Israel. Yes, of course it does in regards to Iran, and yes of course it does in regards to the Sudan.

MARGARET WARNER:

Let me get Sen. Dodd on this political impact.

SEN. CHRIS DODD:

It is already. These are costing us dearly here. Iraq is– The mishandling of Iraq has cost $200 billion. That's money not going for health care, for job creation. The insecurities here at home are directly linked to the insecurities internationally. You can't be unmindful of that.

MARGARET WARNER:

All right, Senator. Sorry, but we have to leave it there. Thanks so much both of you.

SEN. PAT ROBERTS:

Thank you, Margaret.

SEN. CHRIS DODD:

Thank you.