U.N. climate conference opens amid skepticism world will move away from fossil fuels

Read the Full Transcript

• Amna Nawaz:

  The United Nations climate conference COP 28 began today in the United Arab Emirates.

  Negotiators from nearly 200 countries are hoping to hammer out agreements to limit the pollution that's warming the planet and to agree on aid for the nation's most impacted by climate change.

  William Brangham joins us for a preview of what's to come.

  Good to see you, William.

• William Brangham:

  Hi.

• Amna Nawaz:

  So, this is the 28th such climate summit hosted by the U.N.

  What are negotiators specifically hoping to work out in this one in Dubai?

• William Brangham:

  The backdrop for all of this is that we are living through the hottest year ever in recorded human history.

  And that warmer world creates havoc all over the planet in extreme events, drought, fire, floods. That costs billions of dollars, and that kills people. And so the whole goal of this summit, in essence, is to stop that damage.

  Now, there's a new focus that's been happening this year and in recent years, which is, what is the responsibility that the developed world that is principally responsible for climate change, what does the developed world owe to the developing world that is suffering the impacts of climate change, who did nothing to cause this?

  And there was some news today. There was a fund for the first time established to try to offer some aid to those nations. So that's a start.

• Amna Nawaz:

  So we know we cannot meaningfully address climate change without reducing fossil fuel use, without moving towards renewable energy. Pledges and plans have been made at previous summits too.

  How are the nations doing on those?

• William Brangham:

  Not great, in short.

  I mean, U.N. Secretary Antonio Guterres has been very harsh about wealthy nations that talk a good game and fail to deliver. The fact is, is that that progress is not happening nearly quickly enough.

  The hard part is that we live in a fossil fuel world, I mean, every single thing around us, the lights, this table, the concrete on this floor, how we got to work, all powered by fossil fuels. And transitioning away from that is costly and complicated, and it's a hard thing to do.

  Now, that transition is happening. Renewable energy is coming on like gangbusters, as my mom likes to say.

  (Laughter)

• William Brangham:

  But it is not happening nearly fast enough. And critics contend that this cost of inaction is an unacceptable cost to pay.

• Amna Nawaz:

  This one summit was also beset by controversy before it even began. What happened there?

• William Brangham:

  People argue, why are you having a climate change conference in a state known, in a nation known for exporting oil and gas?

  The president of the current COP, Sultan Al Jaber, is an oil executive in the UAE. And so people argue this is a classic example of the fox guarding the henhouse. The BBC and the Center for Climate Reporting reported that he was found trying to make oil and gas deals in the lead-up to this event.

  So people are dubious of what might come out of this. And, recently, earlier this week, I tried to get some context for all of this. And I spoke to Christiana Figueres, who is a veteran of these prior U.N. climate talks. And we began talking about this controversy about the COP president.

  Christiana Figueres, Former Executive Secretary, United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change: Caught red-handed, the COP presidency has frankly no other option but to unequivocally step up its transparency, its responsibility, and its accountability with which they are leading this process.

  Now, from a planetary perspective, frankly, we cannot afford for them not to do so. That's where we are.

• William Brangham:

  Jaber certainly says that he appreciates that there has to be a transition away from fossil fuels, that we have to cut emissions drastically, 50 percent in the next few years, that he seems to argue that he is uniquely positioned to help lead this COP and help lead the world in those emissions reductions.

• Christiana Figueres:

  And we all need him to do that. That is exactly right. We all need him to do that. And we have — none — no one can afford for him to waver on that.

  So, yes, I would totally agree that that is his job. That is his responsibility. And if he really sets his head to it, he can do it. He is a very, very intelligent person.

• William Brangham:

  You and many others have argued that if we continue on our current path, that we are condemning current and future generations to an increasingly unlivable planet, of famine and disease and conflict.

  Do you worry that the sense of urgency on that front is diminishing?

• Christiana Figueres:

  We humans have a very interesting contrasting reaction to acute and to chronic situations.

  We react pretty well when there is a chronic — or we react pretty well when there is an acute threat. That hits us, hits us really hard, and then we address it, and then we pass.

  What — a pandemic being a pretty good case in point. We are absolutely terrible about dealing with chronic threats, despite the fact that they may be life-threatening. But if they're chronic and sustained over time and gradually hitting us, we're just terrible at that. We can't deal with that.

  And so the new muscle that we have to exercise here is, how do we deploy those measures and that decision, that commitment that we bring to acute threats, to get through acute threats, how do we deploy it for chronic threats? That is the lesson that we have to learn.

• William Brangham:

  The war in Ukraine certainly sent an incredible shockwave through the energy industry. There's concern that what's happening in the Middle East right now with Israel and Gaza could also spread wider.

  Do you share the concern that the tumult in the energy market pushes the commitment to renewables and the green energy transition to the side or to the back burner?

• Christiana Figueres:

  No, to the contrary, I was — I was — William, I thought you were going to end that sentence completely in the opposite direction.

  The worry about energy dependence pushes countries toward domestic energy production that, by and large, is actually renewable energy direction. And that, we have seen. Since the war in Ukraine, we have seen investment into renewable energies worldwide go up. Two years ago, we had $1 trillion invested in fossil fuels, still, oh, my God.

  This year, we still have $1 trillion invested into oil and gas and $1.7 trillion into renewables. Why? Because that actually strengthens energy independence. That strengthens security, strategic national security.

  And so, though the invasion of Ukraine is a tragedy and completely cannot be justified under any account, absolutely, and it has had a very interesting accelerating effect on the energy system of the world. It has accelerated the decarbonization of the energy system.

• William Brangham:

  On that revolution in renewable and green energy that is under way, as you say, what is it that most gives you hope when you look at that industry?

  I mean, wind and solar, prices are dropping and production is going up. What gives you the most hope when you look at that field?

• Christiana Figueres:

  That is exactly what gives me hope, the fact that this is no longer linear, the fact that we now see very, very clearly the S-curves, the exponential curves, of all of those solution technologies.

  Wind is definitely on an on exponential curve, solar definitely, batteries definitely, E.V.s getting there very, very quickly, already showing that initial indication of being on that — on that curve. So what gives me hope is the fact that the technologies that can help us to reduce greenhouse gas emissions are on exponential curve of improvement, development, and deployment.

  That, of course, means that we are, frankly, on a race here between two exponential curves, the exponential curve of solutions, which I have just described, but also the exponential curve of the negative effects that we're seeing. So, we are seeing two exponential curves that, in my book, are racing against each other.

  When they're going to intersect, we don't know. But we do know which of those exponential curves has to win the race.

• William Brangham:

  Christiana Figueres, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us.

• Christiana Figueres:

  Thank you, William. Good to see you.