U.S. cardinal urges defunding of ICE: 'We need to see what's happening in front of us'

Geoff Bennett:

One of the country's highest-ranking Catholic leaders and a top ally of Pope Leo is sharply criticizing the Trump administration's immigration enforcement, calling ICE a lawless organization.

During an interfaith service this week, Cardinal Joseph Tobin, the head of the Archdiocese of Newark, urged members of the church to pressure lawmakers to block funding for ICE. His remarks come after the deaths of Alex Pretti and Renee Nicole Good, and after the detention of Liam Conejo Ramos, a 5-year-old boy who was taken into custody by federal agents after arriving home from preschool and sent with his father to a family detention center in Texas.

For more now, we're joined by Cardinal Joseph Tobin.

Thanks for being with us.

Cardinal Joseph Tobin, Archbishop of Newark: Good evening.

Geoff Bennett:

Before speaking out, I imagine you must have weighed the implications. What specific moral and theological convictions ultimately compelled you to speak publicly?

Cardinal Joseph Tobin:

I think the principle motivator was a concern for the common good.

In the Catholic way of thinking and approaching social-moral questions, it's not simply the vindication of competing rights, but it's rather the preservation of the common good. And so to look at how the actions in Minneapolis or anywhere else affect the common good, those are people like whom you mentioned, the refugees, people without legal status, as well as the citizens of the United States.

Geoff Bennett:

And you have called not just for prayer, but for political action, calling for the defunding of ICE, as we mentioned.

What concrete changes do you envision?

Cardinal Joseph Tobin:

Well, I think what we want to do is -- as much as possible, is use as a principal motivator the human dignity of people.

And I think what I was calling for and I still call for and will call for is the recognition of the dignity of human beings, no matter what their legal status may be.

Geoff Bennett:

How do you reconcile this call to push back against actions you believe are unjust with the church's teaching and the Scripture's teaching of respect for government authority?

Cardinal Joseph Tobin:

Well, I think that we pray for our government officials. And as St. Paul says in First Timothy, we pray that in order that we can live tranquil and decent lives and following our values.

And so we not only pray for ourselves, but we pray for others, because we recognize, in human dignity, the dignity of especially people who don't -- do not necessarily look like us.

Geoff Bennett:

In your message, you also invoked the rise of authoritarianism. Do you believe the country is headed in that direction or that we're presently there? And, if so, what are the biggest moral choices facing Americans right now?

Cardinal Joseph Tobin:

Well, I think we have to ask ourselves about the ongoing discord within our society and ask what the roots are.

We also have to ask ourselves, as Americans, where do we want our country to go? What do we want it to be, both here within our national borders and in the community of nations? These are questions that require, I think, respectful listening to each other and also the freedom to express our opinions.

Geoff Bennett:

Separate from the moral question, there is the political question. And you could argue that President Trump won the Electoral College, he won the popular vote, he won every battleground state running on tougher immigration enforcement and that lax enforcement under the Biden administration caused real harms.

Cardinal Joseph Tobin:

Well, I'd like to make it clear that I'm not endorsing anybody's political program or even that -- the values of a movement.

Rather, I think what we need to do is see what's happening in front of us and then recall what I think is a fundamental value for any of us with faith, without faith. I really hope that the recognition of the human dignity of others is important.

And when we see that dignity violated sometimes in a very egregious and even fatal manner, then we have to say something.

Geoff Bennett:

As a faith leader looking at this moment in American life marked by deep turmoil, but also by people coming together in unexpected ways, do you see signs of hope?

Cardinal Joseph Tobin:

I really believe that, without hope, we're truly in a miserable state. There has to be hope.

And part of my hope is that, when people recognize the humanity of the other, they change. On the contrary, if you want to do inhuman things to people, what you strive to do is take away their dignity, to call them names and not recognize them for who they really are.

Geoff Bennett:

Cardinal Joseph Tobin, thanks again for your time this evening. We appreciate it.

Cardinal Joseph Tobin:

My pleasure, Geoff. God bless you.