U.S. diplomat discusses American policy toward Ukraine amid Russian aggression

Amna Nawaz:

Before his mission to Washington, Zelenskyy first stopped in New York to address the United Nations General Assembly and the Security Council.

For an inside look at American policy toward Ukraine, I'm joined now from New York by Ambassador Victoria Nuland, who is the acting deputy secretary of state.

Ambassador, welcome. Thanks for joining us.

So, we are likely headed towards a U.S. government shutdown. Republicans remain very much split on funding for Ukraine. We know President Biden is seeking an additional $24 billion in Ukraine aid. How likely is he to get that?

Victoria Nuland, Acting U.S. Deputy Secretary of State: Well, Amna, I have to say I was up on the Hill yesterday, and the bipartisan support for Ukraine remains extremely strong, Democrats and Republicans.

And I think that's because the people's representatives and the American people themselves understand what's at stake here. This is obviously about Ukraine and Putin's vicious war against Ukraine, but it's about far more than that.

It's about the international order and whether a big country can just bully another one with impunity. And if you allow that to happen and to stick in Ukraine, it'll happen all over the world. So, we are feeling good about the bipartisan support, but it's also important that President Zelenskyy is here, that he made his case again to the world, and that he will make his case directly to members of Congress, and they will get a chance to ask the questions that they have.

Amna Nawaz:

As you know, some of the strongest objections to that funding come from a small group of far right Republicans.

Have you met with any of them, especially when you were here on the Hill recently?

Victoria Nuland:

So, we continue to meet with everybody.

And, again, we're trying to remind folks what the larger stakes are. We also have some folks who say, well, we should be focused on China or other problems. And our point is that all of these things are connected. There are countries all around the world, including China, who are looking to see if the United States stays the course here, if we are able to continue to lead the rest of the world to support Ukraine, to support defense of the rules of the road that favor freedom.

So, our case is that this is not only about Ukraine. It's about the global order, but it's also about the world that Americans and their children should want to live in. So that's the case that we are making. And, frankly, it's a powerful one.

Amna Nawaz:

Given the way the war has been unfolding so far, at the current expenditure rates, how long would $24 billion really last?

Victoria Nuland:

Well, we're talking now with the Congress about attaching this supplemental to a funding bill that will last until the end of December.

The government is going to have to be funded in '24, so we anticipate we will have to have another conversation thereafter. But what we're looking to do here is set the frame for what's important to the American people, what's important to our global role, what's important to peace and security going forward for this chunk of time, but obviously for the future.

Amna Nawaz:

And when it comes to the NATO alliance, I wanted to ask you about one key member and where he stands right now. That's the Turkish president, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who I spoke with recently in New York.

And when I asked him about his relationship with the West and his relationship with Russia, he basically said: "At this moment in time, I trust Russia just as much as I trust the West."

This is a key NATO ally. I just wonder, what's your response to that?

Victoria Nuland:

What I would say is that Turkey, in this particular episode of Russia's aggression with Ukraine, has played, frankly, a linchpin role.

And the fact that Erdogan can speak to Putin, when the rest of us have pretty broken relations with him, can come in useful. It came in useful when they were able to negotiate the Black Sea grain initiative and help Ukraine get its grain out to the world. And we hope that Erdogan will be able to get that agreement renewed.

But it also doesn't change the fact that Turkey has taken a very strong stand in defense of Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity. In the first days of the war, they closed the straits to warships, which ensured that this couldn't escalate beyond the region. And they have provided essential military support to Ukraine as well.

So it's good that Erdogan can still talk to Putin, but it's even more important that he's standing up for the values that undergird NATO and that make Turkey's NATO membership valuable.

Amna Nawaz:

I suppose open lines of communication are one thing, but to say that he trusts Russia as the aggressor in this war just as much as he trusts the West, is that response OK for you? You're comfortable with that stance?

Victoria Nuland:

Look, I'm not going to parse the words of President Erdogan. I'm going to watch what he does as the leader of a very important ally.

And he's played a — he and his country have played a strong role in defense of Ukraine. So — and the fact that he can talk to Putin is useful.

Amna Nawaz:

I also wanted to ask you about Saudi Arabia while we have you, because the crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman, said in an interview that: "Every day, we get closer to a normalization deal with Israel."

That's something the U.S. has been pushing for, for months. We know the Saudis would like security guarantees as part of that deal. Is that something that the U.S. will provide?

Victoria Nuland:

Well, Amna, I'm not going to get into the details of the deal as we're trying to cook it. It is extremely complex and involves a lot of elements.

But what I will say is that, if we can have a lasting peace between Israel and Saudi Arabia and a normalization, given their history together and given the role that Saudi Arabia plays in the Arab world, it would be transformational. It would be transformational for the region. But there is a lot of complexity in this deal, a lot of things that have to be worked through, including increased support for the Palestinians.

So, we have got some way to go, but we're working very hard on it.

Amna Nawaz:

You mentioned the Palestinians. Of course, we know the crown prince also said he hopes the deal would ease the life of Palestinians.

What does that mean in tangible terms?

Victoria Nuland:

Again, we're talking about this as an element of the deal, in terms of ensuring that the conditions on the ground are such that the prospect of a two-state solution stays vibrant and strong, that there is more economic investment and support in the territories, and that the Palestinian people see the benefits of peace between Israel and Saudi Arabia if we can get there.

But, again, this is just one of the many complex elements in this deal that we're working on now.

Amna Nawaz:

We look forward to you coming back and joining us again as those conversations continue.

That is Ambassador Victoria Nuland, acting deputy secretary of state.

Thank you very much for joining us.

Victoria Nuland:

Thank you, Amna.