What the Trump civil trial could mean for legal accountability in sexual violence cases

Amna Nawaz:

In Manhattan, the cross-examination continues of E. Jean Carroll.

The magazine columnist has accused former President Donald Trump of raping her in a department store in the mid 1990s. She testified again today after the judge rejected a request from Trump's attorneys to declare a mistrial.

The civil trial being — is being closely watched, not only because of the high-profile defendant, but for what it could mean for illegal accountability in cases of sexual violence.

Among those watching is Laura Beth Nielsen. She's professor of sociology at Northwestern University and an attorney and researcher with the American Bar Foundation.

Professor Nielsen, welcome. And thanks for joining us.

As I know you have been watching the trial, you saw last week the detailed testimony from E. Jean Carroll questioned by her own lawyer. As part of that cross-examination, they have been asking why Carroll decided to sue Trump in the first place and not former CBS head Les Moonves, who Carroll has also previously said sexually assaulted her.

Carroll answered in this way, saying: "He, Les Moonves, didn't call me names. He didn't grind my face into the mud like Donald Trump did."

Professor Nielsen, Trump's attorneys have seemed to be implying she's chasing money, chasing book sales, chasing fame. What do you make of that defense strategy?

Laura Beth Nielsen, Northwestern University:

Well, I think it's a very common defense strategy to question the motives of someone who's making a sexual assault allegation.

And this is an effective way of bringing up the kind of rape myths or scripts that we all have in our mind about rape and that we see in the media over and over again, right? It couldn't have been — it couldn't have really happened. If it happened in this case, why didn't you do something in this other case?

But, in fact, the harms associated with each sexual assault that someone suffers are unique. And her decision to hold one person accountable and not another is her decision.

Amna Nawaz:

There's another line of questioning getting a lot of attention from one of the defense attorneys, a man named Joe Tacopina, specific to her assault.

Last week, there was this exchange in which Tacopina asked her about during the assault — quote — "You never screamed for help?"

Carroll answered — quote — "You can't beat up on me for not screaming. I'm telling you, he raped me whether I screamed or not."

In today's cross-examination, Tacopina asked why Carroll never filed a police report. She said: "Mr. Tacopina, I was born in 1943. I'm a member of the silent generation. Women like me were taught and trained to keep our chins up and to not complain. Women my age were not ever trained to call the police. I would never call the police about something I'm ashamed of. I thought it was my fault."

I wonder what you thought about that line of questioning and how Carroll handled it.

Laura Beth Nielsen:

Rape is the most underreported crime that we know of.

And this is agreed on by social scientists, medical doctors and the law enforcement. If you look at the number of reported rapes versus the number that you — that you get when you ask women and people of gender minorities whether or not they have suffered a sexual assault, there's a vast Gulf.

So it's very common not to report due to shame, fear of not being believed, thinking that their name is going to get dragged through the mud in this way. And while she's certainly correct that there was more of a taboo for women of her generation, it's not that that's solved now. These problems still exist. Rape remains underreported.

And I wouldn't want people to go away thinking, well, that's that generation and we have progressed mightily. This is still a problem, the underreporting of sexual assault and attempted sexual assault.

Amna Nawaz:

In terms of how these exchanges are resonating with a jury, though, I wonder how you look at that.

Is there is there a — quote, unquote — "normal behavior 'that someone in a jury hearing these exchanges could compare Carroll's behavior too?

Laura Beth Nielsen:

Well, unfortunately, a lot of what the defense is trying to do is going to resonate, because these are the rape myths that we have heard over and over in our lifetimes.

It's hard to know. And we should say that we're basing this on reporting from the courtroom, right? We're not sort of hearing the tone. And we're not able to look at the jurors and see how they're responding.

But I do think it will resonate. And yet, at the same time, there is a recognition that the law is taking this claim seriously, that sexual assault is harmful enough, it's pervasive enough that we, even this — much later than the allegations are for, we still want to try to remedy the situation.

Amna Nawaz:

This trial…

Laura Beth Nielsen:

It's good for people to see them taking — the law taking this seriously.

Amna Nawaz:

Yes.

Well, to that point, it's obviously getting a lot of attention, this specific trial, because we're talking about a former president on trial for rape. But, more broadly, what is at stake here when it comes to limits or a greater ability of the courts for some kind of accountability in these cases?

Laura Beth Nielsen:

Well, I think we're seeing a slow, but steady progress on believing women, even when they're accusing very high-powered people, like the president of the United States, the president of a movie studio, and so on.

We have seen the fall of marital rape exemptions. We have seen rape shield laws, all designed to protect accusers. And I think, given the #MeToo movement, lots more people know someone who had been the victim, their daughter, their sister, someone. And this is really — some people are going to read this as a reason not to report and a reason to stay silent, because it's really hard to make a claim like this.

Look what's happening. But I think it's also raising the idea that the law takes this seriously. The law is beginning to appreciate what happens for sexual violence survivors. They don't report right away, and they suffer long-term damage.

Amna Nawaz:

That is Laura Beth Nielsen, professor of sociology at Northwestern University, and an attorney and researcher with the American Bar Foundation.

Professor Nielsen, thank you for joining us.

Laura Beth Nielsen:

Thanks for having me.