White House ‘using shutdown as excuse’ for more mass firings, Democrat says

Geoff Bennett:

And for a Democratic perspective on the shutdown, we're joined now by Shalanda Young, former director of the Office of Management and Budget under President Biden, now a distinguished scholar at NYU Law.

Thank you for being here.

Shalanda Young, Former Director, Office of Management and Budget Director: Thank you for having me, Geoff.

Geoff Bennett:

So President Trump and Russ Vought, his budget director, they are warning of permanent layoffs, mass firings connected to this shutdown, a dramatic break from past practice.

What do you make of the way Republicans are rewriting the rules here?

Shalanda Young:

Geoff, this has nothing to do with the shutdown. This is in line with everything we have seen from this administration. Who's to say those mass layoffs wouldn't happen if the government were open?

Who's to say that wouldn't happen October 15 if a deal is reached to reopen the government? You don't get extra authority to fire people because the government ran out of money. As the senator just said, this is a policy choice. They're making a policy to use the shutdown as an excuse, frankly, to undertake these mass firings, a continuation for what we have seen since January 21.

Obviously, they want the shutdown theatrics around this announcement. But I can tell you one thing. I'm not sure, whether the government was open or not, if we would see anything different.

Geoff Bennett:

So the shutdown gives them no extra authority. Would the firings, mass firings, even be legal?

Shalanda Young:

So, this is a great question.

When you have a lapse in funding, which is what this is — Congress didn't do its job on time — you usually furlough most staff and you only keep the staff who are essential, I mean essential, to the workings of government. We call them excepted staff, so our military around the world doing critical work. That should be a very limited number of people.

So what this tells me, if they made a decision that they're going to bring in H.R. officials to undertake these firings. We're obviously bringing in I.T. people during a shutdown to volunteer to put mass firing warnings on government Web sites. So there is a legality question about whether they are using volunteer services and bringing in people not paid to do these things that obviously are not critical to the mission of government.

Geoff Bennett:

President Trump today said that he views this shutdown as an unprecedented opportunity to slash more government agencies, to cut more Democratic priorities. Russ Vought, as we said earlier in this broadcast, one of the architects of Project 2025, he has openly argued for concentrating power in the hands of Trump loyalists and dismantling traditional checks and balances.

What I hear you say is that this budgeting piece is in many ways a pretext for a power grab.

Shalanda Young:

That's exactly what I'm saying. It is — this is a continuation of the same old, same old since January 21.

DOGE, Elon Musk, seems a long past away, but it's not, where we saw e-mails, tell me what you did yesterday or the day before or you will be fired, or I will fire someone this day and maybe bring them back if I made a mistake the next.

What's different now? Shutdown is being used as a pretext to do what they wanted to do with government. As a matter of fact, they told us this in Project 2025. This was laid out for people. Now, we were told this administration wouldn't follow Project 2025, but here we go. We can check a box throughout that document. This is exactly following that playbook, and shutdown is being used as a facade.

Look at the New York project, infrastructure project. The bridge is falling apart in New Jersey and New York. They didn't say for shutdown they were pulling that money. They said it was DEI-related. So we see DEI being used as a pretext. We see shutdown being used. They want to do these things, and they will find a way to do them.

Geoff Bennett:

On the other hand, what lessons can Democrats learn from the way Republicans are playing hardball here?

Shalanda Young:

So I got to — get this question all the time. How can Democrats win? I think, if you start that way, it's a pretty cynical way of looking at government.

I don't think there's anyone that questions that Democrats believe government in its best form can work for the American people, that, in its best form, it helps working-class people enter into a path to the middle class, that it helps the middle class help their kids do better than them.

No one questions the Democratic Party's commitment to making government work. So this is a difficult place for someone like me, who did not preside over a shutdown in four years. That was not by accident. It's because we believed, with Joe Biden as president, myself at OMB, the right thing to do for the American people is have an open government that worked for both parties.

We sat down with Republicans every time.

Geoff Bennett:

How should Democrats then attempt to push back against what looks like this effort to dismantle government by attrition?

Shalanda Young:

They have to tell the truth. They have — this idea, the news cycle of things coming at people, it's hard for people who are trying to pay bills.

It's hard. I'm a mom of a 3-year-old. People are not paying attention to this day in, day out. But Democrats have to keep up the drumbeat. This is what's happening. It's not OK.

And this idea that the government needs to reopen, let's press on that. The government is operating in ways it never has. Parts of the government are shut down now, even when the government was open. We see a collapse of norms in the government. I would proffer that the government isn't operating the way it should in the first place.

So this wave of magic wand, Democrats collapse, the government reopens, to what? Are you OK with status quo? A lot of Democrats are saying, no, they're not.

Geoff Bennett:

If Russ Vought wants to prevent agencies from receiving money that's already been appropriated, what can, what should Congress do?

Shalanda Young:

So the judiciary is obviously involved. You see lawsuit after lawsuit. You see lower courts saying this is unconstitutional or against the statute. Presidents cannot impound. The Constitution has endowed the Congress with the right and the authority to spend money.

That is a congressional right in the Constitution. We get to the Supreme Court, and that's where it all falls apart. So who is it left to? It's left to the body that the founders said be a check on the presidency. Make no mistake, this is more than this vote. This is a power grab by a presidency, by the executive branch.

And Congress gave away the keys months ago. I'm an optimist. They can get it back. But Republicans have to work with Democrats. They don't work for the president. They work for their constituents.

Geoff Bennett:

When you have conversations with your former Biden administration colleagues, what do you make of all this?

Shalanda Young:

You know, elections have consequences. I have been around long enough not to cry in my milk because I see a policy that I disagree with. Obviously, I have worked to promote Democratic values and work on policies popular with the Democratic Party for 20-something years.

I have been in the majority and the minority when I worked on Capitol Hill. So I'm over crying about things I don't like. Elections have consequences. This feels different to someone who's done this a long time. This feels like a government that has chosen the very wealthy over working class and middle class.

You look at this Big Beautiful Bill, not my name, theirs, over the summer. You see over 16 million people who will lose their health care. You see the effort to pass tax breaks for millionaires over extending help for those whose premium is about to go up. That's what Democrats are fighting for.

They did it alone in the summer, and now they want Democrats to acquiesce after health care has been obliterated. And Democrats are saying, no, thank you.

Geoff Bennett:

Shalanda Young, thank you for being here. We appreciate it.

Shalanda Young:

Thank you for having me.