The FRONTLINE Interviews
J.D. Gordon
Trump campaign adviser
J.D. Gordon is a former national security and foreign policy advisor for the Trump campaign. He also served as a Pentagon spokesman under George W. Bush.
This is the transcript of an interview with FRONTLINE’s Michael Kirk conducted on May 29, 2018. It has been edited for clarity and length.
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We’ll start with the dossier moment where [then-FBI Director] Jim Comey is talking to President-elect Trump in Trump Tower on Jan. 6th.What do you think was going on there when the IC [intelligence community] walks in and they tell him about the Russian investigation, and then Comey alone wants to meet with President-elect Trump?
I think it was a shakedown.Of course I didn't find out about it until much later, but whenever an FBI director approaches a president-elect with something that was “salacious and unverified,” in Comey’s words, and tells him about it, I think Mr. Trump realized it was a shakedown.He’s been in a tough business in New York, and he knows a shakedown when he sees it.
What about it felt like a shakedown to you?
Well, I wasn’t there.
Right.
But if you're the FBI director and you're approaching the president-elect with a “salacious and unverified” document, and you're trying to tell him, “Well, this is just so you know it’s out there,” I think that raises a lot of questions about Director Comey.
Like what?
What his endgame is, why he would do this.Now, here's a man who some say tipped the election for President Trump because of his handling of the Hillary Clinton email probe.I think there's a lot to that in some ways, and I think in some cases, people think Director Comey was trying to play God.So one has to wonder: Is this the counterbalance to what he did to make up for the issue with Hillary Clinton?Do two wrongs make a right?I think people will have to judge that for themselves.
And when the story leaks not very long after that meeting—it’s on CNN; Jake Tapper reports it; and BuzzFeed hits send and sends out the entire dossier—what do you make of that?
It was a horrific chapter in U.S. history.When I first read the dossier, my first thought was thank God I'm not in it, because I read it.It was over 30 pages, and from my knowledge, I read falsehood after falsehood after falsehood.For instance, Carter Page, who was one of our national security advisers, was alleged to have gone to Russia on behalf of the campaign to negotiate an end to sanctions, and he was doing so with [then-campaign chair] Paul Manafort, according to the dossier.
Well, I knew, since I supervised Carter Page, since I was the director of the National Security Advisory Committee, that was entirely false.In fact, I told Carter Page he shouldn’t go to Russia because it would be a bad idea.Carter Page, after about a month of asking, went around me and he got permission from the campaign manager, Corey Lewandowski, to go to Russia.It had nothing to do with Manafort whatsoever.So I knew that was fictitious right away.That was my first clue that hey, this dossier really needs to be examined, and we need to see who’s behind it, because it’s a political hit job.It’s salacious and unverified, in Director Comey’s own words.
… [Comey] had an investigation that Trump might not have known.He had an open investigation into what we call the Russia issues.He also had an investigation going on into Mike Flynn.Can you talk to me a little bit about …who’s Flynn.
Well, Gen. Flynn was a key surrogate on the campaign.Of course we know he was the director of the Defense Intelligence Agency.He was an army lieutenant general.He was one of our biggest supporters on our campaign from the summer through the election, and he became the White House national security adviser.I believe he was also the victim of a setup and a shakedown.As far as the specifics between him and Director Comey, I don't know.I was not there when Director Comey met with Mr. Trump.I actually don’t know Gen. Flynn personally because I was the director of the National Security Advisory Committee; he was not technically part of that.He wasn’t technically a part of the campaign.He was a surrogate; he was an outside voice.
So we didn't interact.We were on some emails together—not direct emails, group emails—but we never spoke to each other; we never met.So I really can't tell you much about Gen. Flynn other than from what I've read.It certainly appears that he was set up.
How does he become the NSA, do you know? What did they consider his qualifications for the NSA?
Well, he was very well-qualified.He was an army lieutenant general, career intelligence officer.He had been in charge of the Defense Intelligence Agency.Very smart guy.He became a very trusted confidant to President Trump during the campaign.Now, that wasn’t in the official chain of command.The official chain of command was—the named national security adviser for the campaign was Sen. [Jeff] Sessions, and I was the director of national security.Gen. Flynn was not in that official chain of command for the campaign.
However, President Trump doesn't really care much about chains of command necessarily.So Gen. Flynn was able to really get an insider’s view of President Trump's worldview and his mindset, and he became a very trusted and close confidant of not just President Trump, but President Trump's family, Ivanka in particular.And so he became the national security adviser at the White House.
It matters to be close to the family?
Absolutely.
Why?
President Trump and his family get to know people and trust them, and a lot of that is a personal connection.So Gen. Flynn knew President Trump much more than I did, and even more than Sen. Sessions did, because he basically was trusted by President Trump, so he had a lot of access to him, particularly from the summer of 2016 through the election.He had a lot of access.He was on the campaign trail with him at rallies.He spoke, of course, at the GOP National Convention.He became a very trusted and close confidant of the president.
When you heard what the allegations were about Gen. Flynn lying to [Vice President Mike] Pence and eventually lying to … two FBI agents, … what did you think was going on?
I thought it was a shakedown.Gen. Flynn was authorized to talk to the Russian ambassador during the transition.The issue is that I think that he was spooked by all this talk in the media about the Logan Act, talk by members of Congress if he could be charged with the Logan Act, even though no one’s been charged in the history of our country, and it dates back to the 18th century.I think he was spooked by that and decided that he should not talk to the public about what he talked to the ambassador about, and that eventually got him in trouble.
I believe within his first couple days in the White House, the FBI went to see him.They didn't tell him what it was about.He probably thought it was about his role as national security adviser.… One of the agents was allegedly Peter Strzok, and we know about him and his texts to his lover, Lisa Page, another FBI agent. …
What do we know about it?
Well, we know about their texts regarding President Trump, and they were openly disparaging President Trump.And not just disparaging him, but during the campaign they disparaged Mr. Trump, and they talked about this insurance policy, and it was very diabolical for FBI agents who work in intelligence and counterintelligence at a high level—at any level, frankly, but especially at a high level—to be talking about a presidential candidate in that way, let alone a president-elect or a president.
That is what people call in most countries a coup mentality, or coup plotters.It’s very dangerous ground that Peter Strzok and Lisa Page went into.Yet Peter Strzok was allegedly the agent who went to interview Gen. Flynn right after he became the national security adviser.
… It’s worse than a shame, it's a crime, that the contents of his call with Ambassador [Sergey] Kislyak were leaked by the intelligence community.It wasn't just a random thing.I mean, these are classified cables.Somebody committed a felony—multiple people committed a felony, I would imagine, to leak these classified intelligence documents about Gen. Flynn’s conversations with Ambassador Kislyak.That's horrific.You barely hear about it in the media, but I think people should go to prison for it.They very well may.The DOJ, inspector general, has been looking into this, and I think people may go to prison for the crimes they committed against Trump and associates.
The intercept that was on Kislyak’s phone that captured what he was saying, what Gen. Flynn was saying around the sanctions, and “Don’t worry about the sanctions; we’ll take care of that in a little while,” seem to be enough evidence for the president to feel that he had to fire him.How hard do you think it was for Trump to fire Gen, Flynn?
I don’t have firsthand knowledge of it.Of course I haven’t spoken to the president or Gen. Flynn about this.I think it was probably very hard, because President Trump doesn’t like to be put in a situation where he has to undo something that he’s already done, particularly so early in the administration.
And also, I think that President Trump really bonded with Gen. Flynn.I've never seen them interact together, but from all accounts that I've heard and read, it seems President Trump really got to like Gen. Flynn on a personal level, so it must have been very hard for the president to have to do that.
Two times now, he reacts to the fact that the press, in this case The Washington Post, in the case of the dossier BuzzFeed, and CNN in two press conferences, he lets it fly, the president, about “fake news,” about the press.It's almost like he's used these occasions to decide to take them on full frontally.Why was he doing that?
Well, I think the president was very frustrated because he realized that he and associates like me were victims of a shakedown.President Trump's been a fighter all his life, self-made billionaire.He’s fought it out in the real estate business in New York, in the casino business in Atlantic City.And that ain't bean-bag either, as they say.However, when you come to Washington, it’s a different animal.It's more of a swamp, if you'd like to put it that way.And I do think it is that way, like President Clinton found out that if you're engaged in any kind of behavior people could take a look at or question, they can peel back the onion for something else.
So this is far more difficult than anything President Trump had ever experienced as a successful realtor, casino magnate, a reality TV star.This is far more nefarious, and I just think he reacted like any normal human being would.What is going on?He knows it’s fake.He knows it’s a setup; he knows it’s a plot to destroy him and people around him.So I just think he had moments of truth where he expressed his frustration like I think any normal human being would do.
As you're watching it unfold, J. D., when do you, or what do you think the press is doing, the major press is doing both at that first instance after the dossier and certainly after Flynn’s firing?
I think the press is trying to remove President Trump from office, and the way they can do it is just by spreading rumor and innuendo and hurting his credibility so that the Congress will take action and eventually impeach him, because if the president’s so unpopular, the Congress can impeach them at their will.Now, of course you need a majority in the House of Representatives to impeach a president, just like the Republicans did to President Clinton in the 1990s.
However, to remove a president is harder, because you need a two-thirds conviction in the Senate to actually remove him.So even though I doubt that's going to happen to President Trump, if the Democrats win in the House of Representatives in November, I think they will impeach President Trump.They’ve said as much.They've said it often; they’ve said it loudly.Now, Nancy Pelosi, who is trying to become the speaker once again, has tried to throw cold water on that recently because it doesn't sell well for the Democrat base, because we’d go to gridlock again for nothing, for rumors and innuendo and salacious and unverified allegations, in Director Comey’s words.
But I think that's where Democrats will go.So I think the media plays a role in that because they want to chip away at President Trump.The media wants to chip away at President Trump every day to discredit him, to destroy him and those around him, because he fights the media.He fights them; they're fighting back.It’s a very ugly and vicious cycle, if you will.
Let’s talk about Sen. Jeff Sessions who you worked for, you know well.Tell me about him.Give me the biography of Jeff Sessions as it would pertain to this moment.
Well, he’s one of the most honorable people I've ever met or worked around.He’s dedicated his life toward making the United States a safer and better place, both in Alabama as the state attorney general and as a senator for two decades, and as a U.S. attorney for the Southern District of Alabama before that.
Sen. Sessions was our chairman of the National Security Advisory Committee.He was invaluable to the campaign in helping to get President Trump elected.He was the first senator to endorse President Trump.He held a rally with him down in Alabama, and at the time, people didn't know if he’d be the president or not.
When President Trump first announced he was running in the summer of 2015, a lot of people dismissed it as a joke.It was a running joke to them.I think it was Huffington Post or some others that said, “Look, we're only going to cover President Trump in entertainment."I mean, how crazy was that?So I think that Sen. Sessions was very valuable to make sure that President Trump won.He won in the very crowded primary field of 17 candidates.I was Gov. Mike Huckabee’s chief foreign policy adviser for one year on the campaign throughout 2015.And when he got out of the race in early 2016, after finishing pretty far down the stack in Iowa, I joined the Trump campaign with his daughter, Sarah Huckabee Sanders, and three others.
I reached out to Sen. Sessions right away, right after my endorsement, and the senator had about 100 articles about him.His endorsement and my endorsement was the same week; I had about one.We met, and we started to strategize about national security and foreign policy for the campaign.
His value to Trump as attorney general?Why would Trump pick Jeff Sessions to be the attorney general of the United States?
Well, because Sen. Sessions has a whole career in law enforcement.He was on the Senate Judiciary Committee as well, and Sen. Sessions is a very trusted agent and confidant of President Trump.I think he was the right choice for attorney general.
And then he recuses himself.Surprise you?
No, the attorney general had to recuse himself because he was part of the campaign, and if the campaign’s going to be investigated, you have to recuse yourself.He was just following the law.
The president isn't happy about it.Can you imagine why?
Yes, of course.Because he had an ally and a confidant, someone he knew that would make decisions, that would be able to ensure that witch hunts don’t happen.Of course President Trump's going to be upset about that.But unfortunately, since the senator was part of the campaign, and there was this really witch hunt thrust upon us, the senator had no choice but to recuse himself.
When you look back on it, how important is it that Jeff Sessions recused himself?
Well, it’s pretty tragic for all of us, actually.But it is what it is.You can't go back and undo time.
Why tragic?
Well, tragic because there's been a witch hunt that has ensnared about 50 Trump associates.We're incurring millions of dollars of personal legal bills to defend ourselves from lies and defamation, smears before various Congress committees and before the special counsel, before the grand jury in many cases.It’s a witch hunt, really.The buzzword has been “collusion” for two years, yet the Trump-Russia probe, which was launched about two years ago for the Obama administration secretly, still hasn’t found anything.No collusion.However, that's the pretext to get President Trump for something else.So then collusion becomes obstruction which then becomes financial crimes which then becomes something else—Stormy Daniels or Michael Avenatti or whatnot, some type of scandal that keeps it in the press.
Things tend to snowball in Washington, D.C. Just like we saw in the 1990s against President Clinton, Whitewater was a shady real estate deal in Arkansas, but seven years later after the investigation began, and the independent counsel, Ken Starr, trying to find out whatever he could find out, basically led to Clinton's impeachment over Monica Lewinsky and the blue dress.I mean, how crazy is that?But it happened.
Now, of course President Clinton wasn't removed from office because the Senate refused to go along with the House impeachment.But we were at gridlock for quite a while in the United States over it.It was very controversial.I think the same thing may happen to President Trump.I think the path is set toward that.Particularly if Democrats win in November, I believe that will happen.The Democrats will impeach him, and I don't think the Senate is going to convict him, because convict him for what?For this witch hunt?For crazy things like that?
There's a Saturday where President Trump tweets—I think it's a Saturday—tweets that Obama is a bad guy who’s wiretapped, or whatever it is, tapped his wires.What did you make of that, and what was the president doing?What was he alleging?
Well, he’s alleging surveillance, and history shows he’s right.There was surveillance on the Trump campaign.Now, whether his wires were tapped in Trump Tower or not is somewhat immaterial. …
Some people say he always does this at around a moment where he needs a diversion or he needs something.He watches Fox and reads Breitbart; he reacts that way.What do you say about that?
I say the president is under assault about 24/7, every day, so he looks at ways to punch back.He gets information about nefarious things that have happened to him and this deep-state mentality, if you will, to either prevent him from getting him in office or removing him once he’s elected by the American people.And he punches back.His wife, Melania, the first lady, has said when he gets hit, he punches back 10 times as hard.And that's a fact: He does punch back harder than he gets hit.
… Around the White House, even around all of these people—Jared [Kushner], Ivanka [Trump], President Trump—it must feel like the place is being encircled.
Well, from my experiences on the campaign as the director of national security, I can tell you that anyone close to President Trump is under siege, whether that's on the campaign, the transition or in the White House.It’s an all-out assault on anyone remotely connected with him, because a lot of people in the press and a lot of people in Congress, the so-called resistance, if you will, are out to destroy us.And I think it's patently clear now, based upon what we know and what's come out in the press, that that's the case.
Some of the press are honest, too, and it hasn’t been an entire whitewash of nefarious things that have happened to President Trump and the rest of us.So the word’s out there.Some of the press are quite honest about it—not all, of course.But we're under assault, and some of us continue to be under assault.There have been about 50 Trump associates who have been marched before three congressional committees—the House Intelligence Committee, the Senate Intelligence Committee, the Senate Judiciary Committee—and also the special counsel and the grand jury, to find out everything we know not just about Trump and collusion, but anything we know about anything ever.And a lot of these inquiries are really inquisitions.These are perjury traps.If you don’t remember one of thousands of emails from a year or so ago, or phone calls, and they ask you about them and they have them serialized, six or seven digits at times, a lot of digits, you may be found guilty of perjury.
So if you don’t remember and you say “I don’t recall” too many times, you may be guilty of obstruction.So this is a witch hunt that keeps giving.And these serial number emails are something that the investigators know very well.And if your memory’s not 10 times as good as Albert Einstein, you'd need a lawyer.
So around this time, in March and in May, Jim Comey has testified.The president has asked him: “Just say that I'm not being investigated.Just get me off the hook, because it’s terrible that the president of the United States has to be preoccupied with this kind of thing."Comey won't do that, and in fact freely announces in March that the White House is under investigation; the campaign is under investigation; you guys are all under investigation.What's that like to hear him say that for you and the president?
It was surreal.It was a waking nightmare to hear Director Comey say that on live national television during his House Intelligence Committee hearing in March of 2017.Director Comey said that the entire Trump campaign was under investigation for alleged ties to Russia.It was a counterintelligence investigation to see if any crimes were committed.Yet when he was pressed on names, he wouldn't reveal any.And even though he knew he was only talking about a few select people—Carter Page, George Papadopoulos, Paul Manafort, Gen. Flynn, those four—he put everyone close to President Trump under a cloud.
Then what the media did is they gleefully flashed up pictures of people like me, who was the director of national security, and others, to speculate on who did what when.Not just that: Members of Congress lied about me on national television.
… there's a thing called the Debate Clause in Congress where you can say anything on the House floor or Senate floor and you're immune from prosecution, whatever you want to say, which is how Sen. [John] McCain (R-Ariz.) got away with saying things like Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) worked for Vladimir Putin on the Senate floor, because you can say anything you want in Congress; it's just U.S. law.
However, when you start to defame innocent victims, there's something seriously wrong with that.I would ask a lot of press because I was dealing with hundreds of press.A lot of them were hounding me mercilessly.I'd say, “Before we start this conversation, have you ever watched the movie The Green Mile, where an innocent man was executed?"And they’d pause.“Well, brace yourself.I'm going to tell you the story."And I tell them the same story I'm telling you now.
How much did it cost you so far?
Five-figure legal bills.
What?
Five-figure legal bills.
When Comey gets fired, where are you, and what are you thinking?
… I was in the Washington, D.C., area, and I was very happy that he got fired because I felt that he was unjust.The FBI director is supposed to stand for law and justice, and I knew that he didn't because he said in front of the whole country in March of 2017 that the entire Trump campaign is under investigation.Since he wouldn’t rule out anybody, the media speculated that it was me.What did I do?My picture was splashed all over CNN, MSNBC, The Washington Post, The New York Times for nothing.Because I shook the Russian ambassador’s hand?That's why I was maligned so horribly.
So I was happy that he was fired.I was happy that some type of justice was being meted out.I did think that he should have been fired on day one, because being fired months into President Trump's term was going to invite more problems.I think that Director Comey acted very inappropriately for Secretary Clinton's email probe, and he should have been let go on day one, because if he could do that to Secretary Clinton, he could do something similar to Trump and to Trump associates.So I was happy, but I was a little bit wary of what was next.
And what was next?What was the impact?
Well, the impact was [U.S. Deputy Attorney General] Rod Rosenstein eventually appointed a special counsel, which was somewhat worse than having Comey there in the first place.Not that much worse, because I believe Comey was out to get Trump, period, and out to get as many associates as possible.It was a witch hunt that wasn't being called a witch hunt by most people in the United States, but I knew it was; President Trump knew it was.So I'm glad he got rid of Comey.But unfortunately, Rod Rosenstein appointed the special counsel, and I don't think he needed to do that either.
There's a moment in the Oval Office after Comey’s been fired.[White House Counsel Donald] McGahn is there; Sessions is there.McGahn’s phone rings, and it's Rod Rosenstein, and he says, “I've just appointed Bob Mueller to run the investigation as a special counsel."It is McGahn’s job to then announce that in front of Sessions and to Donald Trump.Can you imagine what that was like in that room at that time?
Yes, and I wouldn't want to be there, and I'm glad I wasn't.
Tell me why.
Well, President Trump doesn't like to get bad news, and this was bad news.It was more than bad news; it was terrible news.And I know Don McGahn very well from the campaign, and I know the senator, of course, who was my boss for the National Security Advisory Committee on the campaign, and it must have been very uncomfortable for them and very uncomfortable for President Trump.I'm glad I wasn't there.
Just give me a little précis on who is Don McGahn.
Sure.Don McGahn is the White House counsel.He was the chief counsel for the campaign as well.He was a partner in Jones Day law firm in Washington, D.C. He’s very well-connected in politics.In the U.S. he had been at the Federal Election Commission before, and so he’s a very well-known lawyer in D.C., very well-respected.
Trump like him?
Yes, yes, he liked Don McGahn very much, trusted Don McGahn, so it must have been awful to hear that news from Don McGahn that Rod Rosenstein had appointed a special counsel.
The president basically dismembers Attorney General Sessions at that moment.He really lets it fly.You know Sessions very well.Can you imagine what that was like for him, the two men who had been so close from the very beginning?
It must have been horrendous for AG Sessions.I feel terrible for him, the way he’s been treated by everybody in the country, frankly.Not everybody, but he’s taken it from all sides.But he’s a true patriot; he’s a good man.He’s an honorable man and an honest man.He’s been put through terrible things, and I feel horrible for him.
Why do you think the president did that?
Well, the president was frustrated, because I think the president thought by appointing a close confidant on the campaign and a great supporter and an honorable guy like Sen. Sessions to be the attorney general that he would get some type of protection.But that hasn’t really been the case.That hasn’t worked out that way because Sen. Sessions had to recuse himself because of the way the country’s structured.He was on the campaign; the campaign was under investigation, witch hunt or not.The senator, now the attorney general, had to recuse himself.So President Trump was just frustrated, and he continues to be frustrated by it.
I think it’s in the summer, in June of 2017, The New York Times reaches out to the White House communications office—the president is in Germany, sees Putin there at the G-20 summit—and the Times wants a statement about a meeting at Don Jr.’s office at the Trump Tower.By the way, do you have an office in there during the campaign?
No, my office was in Old Town Alexandria, in the Washington, D.C., area.I went to Trump Tower for—co-organized an event, but I didn't have an office there.
What's it like in there?What was it like in there during the summer of ’16?
It was a very busy place to work.There was the fifth floor that I visited which just was a lot of cubicles, phone lines.It was the former set of The Apprentice, so it was very packed with folks in there working.And then there were the executive suites on the higher floors, in the 20s, teens and 20s, where other folks worked.And then the fifth floor was eventually abandoned.They moved people up to the higher floors later on in the campaign, later on in the summer.
Where was Don Jr.’s office?
In the executive suites up in the higher floors.
Like up somewhere in the 20s?
In the 20s.
The way it goes is the Times asks for a statement.… [Former White House Communications Director Hope Hicks] is on the plane, Air Force One; Trump is on the plane.They're writing a statement about something that did or didn't happen in Don Jr.’s office basically a year earlier.The Times is waiting for an answer; they want to print, and they come up with something that you could maybe look back on and said they should have just told what they knew or stayed out of it entirely.But instead, for reasons that maybe you can bring a little bit of insight, even though, of course, you're not there, why get into it?
Well, I wasn't there.I wasn't on the plane; I wasn't consulted, so I don’t have firsthand knowledge of why they did what they did.I could just say in general terms that Hope Hicks and President Trump and some folks around them hadn't been in the Washington game before.They didn't realize what a swamp it is and how people are out to destroy you.Yeah, certainly people are out to destroy New York realtors or billionaires or casino magnates, too, but not to this extent.President Trump made a whole career as a self-made billionaire over seven decades’ worth of experience and just saying whatever he wanted, and Hope Hicks took cues off of that, so that’s where we ended up with it.
It’s a critical moment that crossed the redline.[President Trump] said, “Please don’t ever go near my business."Doesn't have an attorney anymore.Has once again railed against Sessions.He's talking about firing him, if he could fire him.He’s talked about firing Mueller if he could fire him.McGahn has talked him out of the firing of Mueller, but he sure does need a lawyer at this exact moment, because he's about to blow.
Yes, he does.Well, that's why it’s a witch hunt.That's why I call it that.I think it is.Well, that's why it’s a witch hunt, because it goes from collusion to obstruction to his family finances.So what's that about?It’s almost like what happened to Bill Clinton in the 1990s where he was investigated for a shady real estate deal in Arkansas called Whitewater, and that leads to years later being impeached over Monica Lewinsky and the blue dress because he lied to the grand jury about it.It had nothing to do with Whitewater.
So I see these multi-probes about Trump-Russia going in the same exact direction.I think the special counsel wants to remove the president.I think that it’s a high-tech stealth coup designed to remove him, to overturn an election.And I think the Congress, at least some in the Congress, would like to impeach him.I think if the Democrats win in November, they will impeach him.But I don't think the Senate’s going to remove him, because what are they going to remove him for?And you need two-thirds of the senators to do it, not just a majority.I think it’s an impossible bar.
So we're just going to waste a lot of time.We're going to grind the government to a halt.We're going to further divide the country for what?So some congressman in California could become a senator next?Is that what this is about, and maybe president someday?I mean, people's naked and blind ambition has gotten in the way of the health and welfare of the United States.
It’s at about this moment, J. D., that he decides: “OK, well, I'm going to play the game their way.I'm going to get a couple of Washington attorneys, not my guys from New York.They're going to be [John] Dowd and Ty Cobb, and they're going to be able to represent me.They're going to talk to Mueller.They know him.They're going to keep me on the straight and narrow.If I'm supposed to do an interview, I'll do an interview.Whatever it is, I trust these guys.We’ll do production; millions of documents will go out."How does that work out for him?
Well, I think it helps for a while because his folks are cooperating with the special counsel, and they're turning over documents, and they're making people available for interviews.I think that at some point it was helpful.But at the end of the day, I don't know how much of a difference it’s going to make, because the special counsel is somewhat like a river.It's going to flow wherever it leads anyway.You could have a better period of time, but ultimately the special counsel, if he wants to try and remove the president, he’ll just try to do it anyway, and that would be in the form of a damning report to Congress, which if the public polls support it, the Congress can impeach him.The House of Representatives can impeach him.
And if the public supports it, the Senate could vote to convict him.You need a two-thirds majority, so that's a very high bar.But this is all about destroying President Trump and his associates both legally and politically.There are two separate tracks here.There's a legal track, which is court, and the investigations; and there's a political and public relations track meant to erode public support and to really destroy Trump and set him up for impeachment and destroy as many people as they can around him.
Like I mentioned, there have been about 50 Trump associates who have been hauled before these various congressional committees, the special counsel and the grand jury.This isn't just about the legal track; this is about defaming people, bankrupting people and possibly imprisoning them.And I think that four people are going to go to prison over this, perhaps more.
So, Cobb, for an audience of one, goes on the talk shows, the Sunday morning shows, and regularly says, “It's going to be over at Thanksgiving”; “It’s going to be over at Christmas”; “It’s going to be over at New Year’s,” hoping, I gather, to keep the president in the box.because he’s a tough client, as you know.He’s a, as you said, counterpuncher, 10 times as hard, and this seems to be dragging out.
But in the end, of course, it doesn’t work for Cobb to say those things, because what happens next?Do you remember?
There have been so many developments on any given day.
Michael Cohen.
Right.
So you know Michael Cohen?
I do.I worked with him in 2011 for the Should Trump Run effort.It was a campaign, essentially, to see if Trump should run for president.Michael actually went out to Iowa; I believe Mr. Trump went to Iowa as well on the Trump plane, and they had a good initiative going on.So I worked with him back then.
Tell me about him.
Well, Michael Cohen is very loyal to Mr. Trump.He was the general counsel for Mr. Trump, and whatever Mr. Trump needed to get done, many of those things he relied on Michael Cohen to do them.
What's it like to be with Michael Cohen compared to [Marc] Kasowitz or any—or Don McGahn?How is Cohen different in degree and in attitude and all of that?
Well, Michael Cohen had been with Mr. Trump for over a dozen years, so he was very close to him, very loyal to him.Don McGahn had been with Mr. Trump for a much shorter period and was focused on the campaign.I thought both were very good gentlemen to work with.I don't know Ty Cobb or John Dowd or the others, so I do know Donald—McGahn, that is—and I do know Michael.Good guys and both very loyal to President Trump.
But very different.
They're very different.
How?
Well, I would say that Michael Cohen was truly like a right-hand man for President Trump.At least that's the impression I got in 2011 going to Trump Tower to help out the Should Trump Run effort; that Michael Cohen was really a right-hand man, a confidant and a loyal attorney for him to do whatever Mr. Trump wanted to do, special projects or whatever it was.Like Should Trump Run was a special project.
Now, Don McGahn was different in the sense that I met him during the 2016 campaign.He was the chief counsel to the campaign, so I worked with him in that capacity.Another very loyal Trump ally, but his role was limited to the campaign.So they were different personalities, and their roles were different.
When the investigation moves to the Southern District of New York and is aiming foursquare for Michael Cohen, what he knows, what he’s done, the subpoenas are amazing, what they allow them to go in and go after at his hotel, at his house, at his offices.The president’s response is forceful.What did you think when you saw how they were about to strip Michael Cohen bare?
I thought it was awful.I thought that Michael Cohen is getting set up, that this is a personal attempt to destroy him and to destroy President Trump in the process.It’s just terrible to see.
Why were they doing it?
Well, because there is a deep-state mentality.I don’t call it a deep state because there's no chain of command or hierarchy.It's a deep-state mentality.It's people who think they know better for the government, people who would try to block a presidential candidate or remove a sitting president, basically what they would call in another country a coup or a coup attempt.I believe there are a lot of people like that.I believe there are a lot of people that are just out for blood.They want to impeach Trump; they want to imprison, bankrupt and defame all his associates, anyone close to him.
I think that some folks saw blood in the water for Michael Cohen, and the more they went at him, sort of like sharks, they thought they could devour him.It's very sad to see, because Michael’s a guy who is very loyal to Mr. Trump.He’s getting his life destroyed right now over things that don’t have anything to do with collusion, which is why I thought they were investigating President Trump, or even obstruction.He's got nothing to do with any of that.
… Now, here's my final question, sitting here now.Mueller vs.Trump, the battle of the titans, the collateral damage, aside from individuals, … what's the meaning of all of this?What happened?What's going to happen?
That's an excellent question.I believe in Mr. Trump's efforts to drain the swamp.What's actually happened is a circular firing squad where people are just trying to take shots at each other, whether they're in the media or are in the White House or on the transition or campaign.This is vicious.It’s almost like some type of bizarro reign of terror.Essentially the special counsel and these three congressional committees are engaged in inquisitions against President Trump, and it undermines the public’s faith in the FBI and our institutions.
You know, growing up in New Jersey, I always thought the FBI was beyond reproach.I saw the FBI as sort of the cowboys with the white hats, the good guys.I was a Pentagon spokesman for four years; I was a navy commander for 20 years, active duty.I always had faith in the FBI. I don’t anymore.That's a tragedy, because I know that people like James Comey, the director, targeted innocent people like me.I don’t have faith in our institutions anymore, and Americans shouldn’t either.That is a despicable thing to happen.
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