Moral Questions After Afghan Massacre

 

KIM LAWTON, host: Religious groups were among those expressing sorrow and condemnation after a US soldier was accused of a shooting spree in Afghanistan that killed 16 villagers, nine of them children. US officials said it was an isolated attack and promised to seek justice.  The massacre triggered a new round of anti-US protests. Relations were already tense after American troops burned Qurans at a US military base.

For more on the situation in Afghanistan, joining me is William Galston, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution in Washington. Bill, welcome.

WILLIAM GALSTON (Senior Fellow, Brookings Institution): Good to be back.

LAWTON: How does what happened in Afghanistan this week affect the moral calculus of how the US proceeds there?

GALSTON: In my judgment, this is a really tough one. On the one hand, as the defense secretary said, in the fog of war terrible things happen. To engage in a war is to commit yourself to a process that you can’t entirely control, and events like this unfortunately are almost inevitable. On the other hand, we are pursuing a kind of forward strategy, having our troops not just in the large bases but also interspersed with civilians in the countryside, and that makes it more likely that events of this sort will happen, but unfortunately the United States and its allies have reached the conclusion that this is the only way to prosecute the war with any chance of success. So now we have to choose between our strategy and the inevitable morally troubling consequences of that strategy.

LAWTON: When we first went into Afghanistan it was after 9/11, and there was fairly widespread consensus that we were morally justified to go in, that we had right intentions for going in there. Do things like this erode our moral credibility for that decision?

GALSTON: Well, I think the credibility of the decision, both moral and not, has weakened over time. It’s weakened in part because the war has just ground on for so long, more than a decade now. And it’s weakened in part because our objectives have changed. Some would say broadened. Some would say that they’re no longer achievable, that it was one thing to try to deny a safe haven to Al Qaeda and its sympathizers, and a very a different thing to try to reconstruct the Afghan nation and its central political institutions. People across the political spectrum, right to left, are beginning to wonder whether we’ve bitten off more than we can chew and if we are committed to a mission whose success is dubious now at best because of the way we’ve defined it. Then that makes it even more troubling that we are engaged in strategy and tactics that make events of this sort more likely.

LAWTON: And what moral factors should we take into consideration as we consider an ethical exit from there?

GALSTON: Boy, that’s another tough one, because we have a bunch of people who have worked with us, who have committed themselves to the joint cause. They are now very, very vulnerable, and we have responsibilities to them. We have responsibilities to civilians in areas that are contested between the allied forces and the Taliban, and we have an obligation, it seems to me, to do everything in our power to ensure that the people who have cooperated with us are treated appropriately. Regrettably, we have not discharged that responsibility very well with the Iraqi civilians who worked with us, and many of them are now in fear for their lives.

LAWTON: Alright, difficult questions still ahead. Bill Galston, thank you very much.

GALSTON: My pleasure.

William Galston on Just War Ethics and Syria

Does the US have a duty to act in Syria? Is it possible to somehow intervene and still do more good than harm? “Nothing is certain in human affairs,” says William Galston, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and a political and moral philosopher. Watch managing editor and guest host Kim Lawton’s conversation with him.

 

Advance Directives

 

TERESA CLEMENTS, RN: Who or what helps you when you face serious challenges in your life?

CURTIS NELSON: I always get comfort from Audrey, my wife.

CLEMENTS: Of 61 years.

CURTIS NELSON: Yes, of 61 years, yes. And then our pastors.

CLEMENTS: So your faith is important?

NELSON: Yes, very important.

LUCKY SEVERSON, correspondent: Conversations like this at Gundersen Lutheran Hospital in La Crosse, Wisconsin, are what set off the nationwide outcry over the so-called “death panels.” This is Curtis Nelson, connected to a dialysis machine, with his wife Audrey and his son Dennis. Teresa Clements is a nurse guiding the discussion.

CLEMENTS: With your particular illnesses, and you’ve got the multiple myeloma, the heart failure, and now the kidney disease, it’s difficult to predict when a complication can occur, and it can happen suddenly, and you might not be able or aware to make those decisions.

post03-advancedirectivesSEVERSON: These end-of-life conversations began in the 1980s at the urging of the hospital’s medical ethicist, Bernard Hammes. He had grown alarmed after listening to staff doctors distressed about how to treat incapacitated terminally ill patients.

BERNARD HAMMES (Clinical Ethicist, Gundersen Lutheran Health System): What does the patient want me to do? The patient now is too sick to ask, the family, when we ask the family, had no idea what the patient would or would not want, and so we were really faced with this moral or ethical dilemma.

SEVERSON: And when the doctors don’t know what the patient or the family wants, Hammes says there’s only one thing to do.

HAMMES: Here, anywhere in the world quite honestly, when you have a patient coming into a hospital who’s very ill, maybe dying if we don’t treat them, our assumption is that treating, attempting to prolong life is the right thing to do. And that, indeed, from an ethical, professional perspective is the right thing to do, but is it what the patient would want?

CLEMENTS: You have a serious complication from your kidney disease, you have a good chance of living through the complication, but it’s expected you will never be able to either walk or talk or both, and you would require 24-hour nursing care. You would choose the following: to continue all treatment because living as long as possible is most important; you would stop all efforts, including dialysis to keep you alive because your quality of life is more important than your quantity; or you are not sure.

post04-advancedirectivesNELSON: That would be terrible. I wouldn’t want to have that.

CLEMENTS: So to stop all efforts then.

NELSON: Yes, if I got into a position like that, yes.

SEVERSON: In La Crosse, Wisconsin, 96 percent of the patients who die have gone through these advance directive discussions and designated how they would prefer to spend their last days.

HAMMES (lecturing): This program is not trying to talk people out of treatment. This program is trying to help patients make informed decisions so that we know what they would want even in a crisis, and we can deliver the services that match their preferences.

SEVERSON: The program has been so successful representatives from around the country now attend seminars at Gundersen Lutheran. The success is due, in part, to the backing of the Catholic and Lutheran churches. A similar program is underway in Minneapolis-St. Paul, which is supported by the head of the National Association of Evangelicals, Pastor Leith Anderson of the Wooddale Church outside Minneapolis. He says he witnessed too many families going through emotional turmoil when their loved one was dying.

REV. LEITH ANDERSON (President, National Association of Evangelicals): For the family, that there are processes in place is wonderfully helpful because often children and spouses, they’re frightened, they don’t want to make a mistake, they don’t want to give up too soon, they don’t want to hold on too long, and if it’s been discussed, and especially if it’s been documented in writing, that is really a gift to family.

post05-advancedirectivesSEVERSON: Pastor Anderson says both he and his wife have filled out advance directives, and he’s encouraged members of his congregation to do the same. The directives, he says, are biblically based, and he uses as an example the story of Jacob when he knows he is about to die.

ANDERSON: And it tells about him bringing all of his sons around him, and he gave a prepared statement to every one of them, and it was different for each one. But the Bible line in Genesis 49 says that he gave instructions. Now that’s marvelous. Here long ago was a man who knew he was going to die and gave final instructions.

SEVERSON: Advance directives today detail individual treatment, assign power of attorney, and are available electronically. Hammes says they are not “death panels,” a description he says is “simply a lie.” He says some people choose to stay alive with any technology medical science can offer. A majority request less invasive treatments. Some, because of their religious views, are ready to meet their maker.

CLEMENTS: If those hopes don’t come true, what else would you hope for, Curtis?

NELSON: That the good Lord says I can come in.

CLEMENTS: That the Lord says you can come in?

NELSON: Yeah.

post06-advancedirectivesSEVERSON: The hospital now trains social workers, nurses, and pastors to conduct these discussions. Bernard Hammes has filled out his own.

HAMMES: I’m not making a judgment for you or for anyone else, but I think we live in a world in which we have to share resources. That’s a spiritual value for me. So if I receive medical care, and it reaches a certain stage, and it’s not going to change the outcome for me, but a lot more money could be spent, I would say, you know, the cost of this care has reached a point that I no longer feel is ethical, because other people don’t even have basic needs being met.

SEVERSON: Although it wasn’t the original intent of Gundersen’s advance health-care planning program, there has been an additional benefit. It saves money. Typically, hospital costs for a patient’s last 6 months of life nationwide average about $31,500. At some hospitals it’s twice that amount or more. At Gundersen Lutheran it’s $22,000 because the patient spends fewer days in the hospital.

HAMMES: Where would you rather spend your time if you had two years left to live, in the hospital going through tests and procedures? We’re putting many, many patients in this country through a lot of additional suffering and expense, some of which they’re going to have to pay for. It’s the fourth most frequent reason for families to go bankrupt.

SEVERSON: There’s another reason hospital costs are less. Doctors here are paid a salary. Dr. Jeff Thompson is CEO of the Gundersen Lutheran Health System.

post07-advancedirectivesDR. JEFF THOMPSON: In our organization and others like us, a physician gets no extra money because they do a CT scan or lab work. There’s no added incentive to put patients in the hospital.

SEVERSON: Dr. Greg Thompson, a pulmonary critical care specialist, says these days the intensive care ward mostly treats patients who have a better chance of long-term survival.

DR. GREG THOMPSON: Many of those patients who have the underlying terminal disease don’t even come to the intensive unit, because they have already decided that at this point in their life that’s not the level of care that they want. They want care, but not the critical care that they would receive in a critical care unit.

ANDERSON: I think that there’s a growing number of people who do not want to have a lot of tubes connected to them. I would say that increasingly I am hearing people say, “I want to die at home.” So they’re making a choice that dignity is more important than more days.

CLEMENTS: Any other hopes for you guys?

DENNIS NELSON: Oh, I would hope that he would get off from this, and if it is eventually going to happen, that it wouldn’t be a long, drawn out process in passing so.

CURTIS NELSON: That’s the biggest thing. I don’t want it to have it dragged out.

TERESA NELSON: So this is a good conversation to have.

SEVERSON: In these discussions, talk is about practical things but often turns deeply personal.

HAMMES: People don’t like talking about death. It’s a taboo in our society. This is a very intimate conversation. When you talk about these issues, you’re really talking, if you will, about the meaning of life, about your religious beliefs and faith, and ultimately about who you are, and that’s a little frightening to most of us.

SEVERSON: At the end of these discussions, Hammes says he often hears the same thing from the nurses and facilitators who conduct them.

HAMMES: What they will report to me is that what they experienced was a sacred space. What happens in families when they really get into the meaning of this conversation is they tell each other how important they are to each other.

SEVERSON: The idea of advance directives appears to be gaining traction. Intimate discussions about the end of life are now starting to take place in hospitals around the country.

For Religion & Ethics NewsWeekly, I’m Lucky Severson in La Crosse, Wisconsin.

Bernard Hammes Extended Interview

When you talk about end-of-life issues, according to Gundersen Lutheran Health System’s director of clinical ethics, “you’re really talking about the meaning of life, about your religious beliefs and faith, and ultimately about who you are.”

 

St. Mary’s Abbey

 

DEBORAH POTTER: The bells of St. Mary’s set the rhythm of life at this abbey in Glencairn, sounding the call to worship. On this day, Sister Michelle rings double bells for the Feast of the Ascension.

SISTER MICHELLE MILLER: It has a knack to do it, and about one or two of us have the knack, so that’s where I am. I was ringing the double bells yesterday. From a young age I had a yearning to be a nun, in my teens, so it was part of my journey in seeking a life where I felt I could be as close to seek God as possible.

POTTER: Life here is all about seeking God. This is Ireland’s only Cistercian monastery for women, founded in 1932.

MOTHER MARIE FAHY (Abbess, St. Mary’s Abbey): It’s a place where God is loved and worshiped, and it’s a place where we pray for humanity. We’re conscious of interceding before God for people, and it’s a place of conversion, where we constantly try to become who we are meant to be as fully human persons and overcome the demons and the less positive aspects of our life.

post01-stmarysabbeyPOTTER: In some ways, life here is the same as it’s always been, governed by the Rule of St. Benedict. Seven times a day, the nuns gather for prayer, starting well before dawn. They spend hours in church and in lectio divina, reading the Bible and other sacred texts.

SISTER MICHELLE: The first word in the rule is “listen.” So in that sense you learn to listen to how God is speaking to you, and to the Holy Spirit in daily life, and how you gradually more attune yourself to his grace. And it takes a lifetime to sustain that, and in that sense you learn to love, and love your sisters as they are, where they are. And it’s a sense of freedom.

POTTER: Most of the day is spent in silence. It’s peaceful most of the time. The abbey is also a working farm with eighty head of cattle.

SISTER LILLY: Takes energy to keep up!

POTTER: For four hours a day every nun works, as they always have. It’s what they work at that’s changed.

NUNS AT COMPUTER: They just added that blue part on top of the head. Ah, yeah, that’s an extra job.

POTTER: Computers and automation have come to the convent. In addition to a small greeting card business, a bakery produces Eucharist bread that’s sold to churches across Ireland. The oldest nuns help with the shipping.

post02-stmarysabbeyMOTHER MARIE FAHY: We live by the work of our hands and also have some left for helping out those who are maybe less fortunate. Work is creative. Part of you needs to have some kind of creative expression; you can’t spend all the time praying and reading. It’s very important to have a balance.

POTTER: The balance of life here is partly what drew Sister Fiachra, who used to run a garden center.

SISTER FIACHRA NUTTY: You know what they say about weeds? They’re like the poor, they’re always with us.

POTTER: She entered the convent five years ago and expects to make her solemn profession next year, committing to live the rest of her life as a cloistered nun.

SISTER FIACHRA: I felt I needed space to be with God, and that’s not very easy, I’ve found, for me in the outside world, because I am quite an extrovert, and I get involved in an awful lot of things, so enclosure was important to me, but at the same time I have a horror of restriction, as in claustrophobia. So here we are absolutely truly blessed. We have 200 acres within which to wander, you know, so that was a huge factor for me. Also the enormous welcome and warmth I felt from the community on my very first visit. That was just so wonderful.

MOTHER MARIE FAHY: We’re not completely silent. We value communication, and communication is important to maintain good relationships.

post03-stmarysabbeyPOTTER: Thirty-seven women now live at the abbey, and unlike in the past when all would have been Irish, today there are sisters from India, Nigeria, and the Philippines. They’re also older. A third are well above retirement age. The oldest is 93. In the past decade, a dozen nuns have died. Like most monastic communities, St. Mary’s is smaller than it used to be. But six women are in formation, on the path to becoming nuns—far more than might be expected. Only nine women entered religious orders in all of Ireland in 2006, according to the most recent survey.

SISTER SARAH BRANIGAN (Vocations Director, St. Mary’s Abbey): I knew that people wouldn’t be rushing in the door, but I am surprised at how occupied I am, actually, with inquiries from people of all different ages. People from 20 to late 60s, so there are a steady flow of inquiries about this kind of life.

POTTER: Several times a year, the abbey hosts “monastic experience weekends” for women of all ages who want to try it out, and they share the experience in more modern ways, too, on their Web page and even on Facebook, where they’ve picked up more than 400 fans.

SISTER SARAH: I feel that monastic life has an enduring kind of appeal. I don’t see it as part of the traditional Catholicism that is in demise, if you like. I see it as lasting.

POTTER: For those of you who live here, what makes it really unique and special?

MOTHER MARIE FAHY: I think the opportunity to live close to God and close to one’s self and have time for prayer and have time for leisurely walks and good reading and reflection on God’s word, and I think living at a deeper level.

POTTER: As the world outside the cloister becomes ever more frenetic, the sisters of St. Mary’s live a simple life in communion with each other and with God.

MOTHER MARIE FAHY: “Christ Jesus intercedes for us before the Father. With him we pray…”

POTTER: For Religion & Ethics Newsweekly, I’m Deborah Potter in County Waterford, Ireland.

Howard Rhodes: On Syria: Just War, Acceptance, and Regret

post01-howardrhodes-syria

The United States has decided not to act unilaterally to protect rebellious Syrian communities from the atrocities of the Syrian military. By the time the international community organizes to take remedial action against Syria’s armed forces, the regime’s tyrannical oppression will be largely accomplished.

According to the teachings of the Christian just war tradition, whose norms have been selectively incorporated into international law and secular political morality, the United States has good reasons for rejecting unilateral intervention in this case. By heeding these reasons, however, the president and citizens of the United States accept a terrible cost. The number of Syrians already killed by the Syrian government (well over 7,000, by U.N. estimates) will continue to grow. The degradation of the insurgents will be prolonged.

This situation places American citizens of conscience in a difficult position. Can the United States ever be obligated in justice to refrain from a military action that could save thousands from murder, degradation, and rapine? Is it possible in justice to accept the deaths of so many? The answer, at least for those citizens whose consciences have been formed by the norms and expectations of the Christian just war tradition, is clearly yes. But how are we to think about the consequences of this judgment? For weeks the major national newspapers have included articles about the mounting deaths and suffering of ordinary Syrians. These articles implicitly pronounce a familiar imperative: something must be done. But in the face of this imperative, we are compelled by another: force is justified only where there is reasonable hope of doing more good than harm. How are we to respond honorably to such conflicting imperatives, especially when the human costs are so high?

An exchange last week between Senator John McCain and Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta captures the moral complexity of the situation. In testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee, Secretary Panetta suggested that a unilateral attack on Syria would cost too much in American lives, in collateral deaths among Syrian civilians, and in future disorder. Senator McCain responded by asking pointedly: “Tell us how long… the killing would have to continue, how many additional civilian lives would have to be lost, in order to convince you the military measures…necessary to end the killing…[are justified]? How many more? 10,000 more? 20,000 more?”

The implication of Senator McCain’s question was clear. When the United States has the military power—particularly, the air power—necessary to stop the tyrant, how callous must we be to refuse to use it on behalf of vulnerable communities devastated by their own government? Secretary Panetta, whom no one would accuse lightly of callousness, responded wearily that such an attack may only be undertaken with a clear view of its probable consequences.

On the terms of the Christian just war tradition, Secretary Panetta’s position clearly has the right of it. Centuries of accumulated Christian moral reflection have taught that a just war requires three things: proper authority, just cause, and right intention. Using force to protect civilians from mass atrocity would undoubtedly constitute just cause. An attack on Syria, however, fails at present to satisfy the other two criteria. There is little consensus at home or abroad that the United States should intervene. The criterion of proper authority is not satisfied simply by widespread approval of an action. Nevertheless, within the contemporary context of international institutions, the criterion requires solicitude toward the judgments of other states. This solicitude is necessary not only to ensure that other states will cooperate by not interfering, but also to ensure that a use of force is perceived as—and is in fact—a contribution to international peace and stability.

While United Nations Security Council resolutions are neither the first nor the last word in political morality, they do function to address this basic concern. Many Americans welcome the concern for international institutions implied by this interpretation of proper authority. The rub is that it will sometimes require binding a benevolent government’s hands by the competing judgments of recalcitrant and self-interested authorities in other states, such as Russia and China.

At a minimum, the requirement of right intention demands that a government actually act upon the just cause that provides the initial justification for war. More broadly, however, the demand for “right intention” places an act of war within the purview of the virtue of prudence. Some Christian thinkers have made the demands of prudence explicit by requiring that a use of force be proportionate, a last resort, and have a reasonable hope of doing more good than harm.

As Secretary Panetta rightly suggests, unilateral intervention in Syria fails the test of prudence. From his testimony, he clearly believes all reasonable political efforts have not yet been exhausted and the prospects of doing more harm than good are very great. In particular, he suggested that intervening in Syria would likely do more harm than good for Syrian civilians, at least for the present moment.

The consequence of this, of course, is that the United States accepts the deaths of the Syrian civilians and rebel fighters currently being slaughtered by their government. It is not an indifferent acceptance, nor even a passive acceptance, but an acceptance all the same. We should not be confused when our president or one of our representatives declares the situation in Syria “unacceptable.” The situation is, of course, unacceptable, yet… And it is here, in this disorienting place where we find ourselves compelled to accept the unacceptable, that we leave the comfortable realm of well-worn moral principles and confront the deeper dimensions of our situation.

The great Christian theologian St. Augustine of Hippo confronted this situation in one way when he laid the foundations of Christian moral reflection on war in the fourth century. Writing in his “Reply to Faustus the Manichean,” Augustine asked, “What is the evil in war? Is it the death of some who will soon die in any case, that others may live in peaceful subjection? This is mere cowardly dislike, not any religious feeling.” Augustine’s view is startling. He suggests plainly, and in a troubling tone, that war is not justified principally to save people from being killed. Such killing is evil, to be sure, and to be prevented when possible. But war is not, on Augustine’s view, a matter of humanitarian intervention. For Augustine, war is justified–if at all–as a means of punishing and containing the lust to dominate that threatens public safety everywhere. This view may sometimes justify what is now called “humanitarian intervention,” but only if such an act justifiably serves public order.

For Augustine and the Christian tradition that descends from him, the slaughter of innocent civilians is just as evil as it seems. These individuals are more valuable in the eyes of God than every hall of government and military monument on the whole earth. But human politics is not a practice born in heaven. It is a practice that takes place within the horizon of a time when the full truth of humankind is, as Augustine might say, clouded by pride and distorted by lust. The most that can be hoped for here is to contain and minimize human degradation by creating a broad public context in which ordinary persons may endure life’s suffering, savor its joys, and confront their deaths in relative peace. The treacheries of human injustice, on this view, cannot be policed all the way down into every poverty-stricken corner of this sad world. And for this reason, Augustine thought, resignation, endurance, and prayer—including lamentation—are practices as important to human social life as any right-minded effort to battle evil with justice.

Augustine and his ilk could embrace this view in part because they believed in a transcendent God who would restore a broken humanity and resurrect the dead. Many Americans cannot accept this view. But surely rejecting this transcendent hope does not leave us only with the view that human effort knows no intrinsic bounds. Many human rights activists argue that any refusal to intervene with force on behalf of the vulnerable is a moral failure. Accusations of callousness abound. Such boundless moralism, however, seems as committed to a transcendental mythos about human moral possibilities as traditional theism.

There is no honorable way to stand before the ghosts of the unjustly dead without shame. Nevertheless, there is admirable honesty in a clear-eyed acknowledgment of limits.

Howard Rhodes has taught at the University of Iowa and is currently is a J.D. candidate at Duke University School of Law. His research interests include the ethics of war, international humanitarian law, and religion and international relations.

Post-Super Tuesday Analysis

 

KIM LAWTON, guest host: Now, more on religion and politics with Kevin Eckstrom, editor in chief of Religion News Service. Kevin, we’ve seen since the very beginning of this primary season that Mitt Romney has consistently done best among the Catholic voters in contrast to Rick Santorum, who is Catholic, and this really helped him out of course last week in Ohio, where about a third of the Republican voters were Catholics, and he got the majority of them and that helped him win. Why do you think that Catholics are really gravitating toward Romney as opposed to Santorum?

KEVIN ECKSTROM (Editor-in-Chief, Religion News Service): Well, I think it’s because Rick Santorum is sort of a very particular kind of Catholic that is a bit actually outside the mainstream of the American Catholic church. You know, the surveys indicate that the American Catholic church, or the American Catholics don’t buy the line that the contraception mandate, for example, is an attack on religious freedom, which is what Rick Santorum and the bishops have been saying. They don’t buy that. Americans Catholics by and large use contraception. Rick Santorum thinks it’s a moral evil, and so there is a disconnect. He is a particular kind of Catholic that I think is a little bit out step with the mainstream, rank-and-file Catholic church, and so I think when they look to him, a lot of them don’t see themselves in him, and a lot of people actually don’t even know that he’s Catholic. Most people assume he’s an evangelical.

LAWTON: And he also generated controversy when he criticized John F. Kennedy’s speech where he talked about the separation of church and state, and Santorum was very critical of that. He said that speech shows a philosophy that wants to keep religion out the public square. He wants to have more religion in the public square of all stripes, he says, and that also affected perhaps some of the Catholic views of him.

Rick Santorum speaking on the role of religious faith in public life in Houston, Texas in 2010.EKSTROM: Right. Again, you know, there are Rick Santorum Catholics and John F. Kennedy Catholics, and I think most Catholics, when they look at the two, they sort of identify with John F. Kennedy. They are fine with the separation of church and state. They actually think it’s a good thing. Rick Santorum thinks it’s kind of a bad thing. But what you see, I think, is Rick Santorum in a lot of ways is the Tea Party candidate in this race. I mean, he’s talking about issues of freedom and liberty and big, aggressive government, and that’s really not in line where most Catholics are, sort of the rank and file. They’re just of a different stripe, and so he’s going after the base of the party, and that’s really not where the Catholics are.

LAWTON: Rick Santorum has done extremely well among evangelicals. Of course, there are evangelicals who do support Mitt Romney, but by and large Santorum’s been getting the majority of those votes and especially in states where there are a large number of evangelicals. That’s made a big difference for him. We have a couple states coming up, Mississippi, Alabama, where that may be a factor for Santorum.

ECKSTROM: Right, and in a place like Tennessee, which Rick Santorum won, I mean, he won the evangelical vote decisively, and the thing to watch, I think, in the Southern primaries coming up, in Alabama and Mississippi, is how well he does among evangelicals and how well Newt Gingrich, who also has strong appeal among some evangelicals, how they do. And one of them is going to get that vote and I think if Santorum gets it, I think Newt Gingrich is pretty much done. But, you know, one of them is going to be the evangelical candidate, because clearly Mitt Romney is not, and I think the next coming week will tell us who that’s going to be.

LAWTON: And, of course, there’s been a lot of jockeying already, everybody calling on the other one to get out of the race, saying that if it were more of a two-man race that perhaps it would be a more interesting competition.

ECKSTROM: Right, and I think, as we’ve talked about, Newt Gingrich really has two roles he can play here. He can be a kingmaker and step aside and throw his support behind one candidate or the other. Or he can be a spoiler and prohibit, you know, drag out this contest among conservatives even longer.

LAWTON: Well, we’ll keep watching. Thank you so much, Kevin Eckstrom.

ECKSTROM: Thank you.