MARY ALICE WILLIAMS, guest anchor: California’s gay marriage law remains in legal limbo. The state’s Supreme Court judges have less than two weeks to either uphold or strike down the gay marriage ban known as Proposition 8. Prop 8 passed last Election Day, in large part because Mormon churches mobilized for it. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints withstood blistering criticism from outside the faith. Now resentments are festering inside the Mormon community. Lucky Severson reports.
LUCKY SEVERSON: Dr. Pam Chan is an OB/GYN and a lifelong Mormon living in San Francisco. She found herself deeply conflicted when she got the message that her church was going all out in support of Proposition 8 banning gay marriage in California.
Dr. PAM CHAN (Member, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints): There would be little announcements made here and there, announcements about how we might be able to volunteer our time to, you know, go door-to-door, to hand out flyers, to stand on street corners with signs, and these little announcements, you know, I’d hear and I’d look around and wonder, “Is everyone okay with this? Does anyone besides me see a problem with this?”
Pam Chan |
SEVERSON: Ron Packard is a lawyer, a former Mormon bishop and former mayor of Los Altos, California. He is now a councilman who supported Proposition 8 and says it’s extremely rare for the church to get involved in ballot issues.
RON PACKARD (Former Mormon Bishop): I think that they made an exception to their general policy of not getting involved because they have a core concern about the protection of families and the possible disintegration of families in modern society.
SEVERSON: The church’s official position is that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained by God, and the formation of families is central to the Creator’s plan for his children. Mormons believe they are led by a modern-day prophet who receives revelations from God, and when the prophet speaks members usually follow. But with this issue Dr. Chan discovered that other active members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints were also strongly opposed to the church’s position on gay marriage.
Dr. CHAN: Our church is the church of Jesus Christ, first and foremost, and my understanding of the Gospel of Christ is that it’s a Gospel of love and acceptance. So it seems like a policy that’s about discrimination, which often goes hand in hand with fear and hatred, not about love and acceptance, and that for me is really troublesome.
SEVERSON: Bob Rees is a retired professor of literature at UCLA, a former Mormon bishop and a church scholar.
BOB REES (Former Mormon Bishop): In reality, this is an issue which has divided our society. It’s divided churches. It’s divided families, and some individuals are divided within themselves.
LISA FAHEY (Member, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints): So during the rallies I had some signs that said “Straight and Active Mormon for Marriage Equality” because I wanted to let people know, and I got a lot of attention for that. People came up and shook my hand and hugged me and told me, “Thank you very much.”
SEVERSON: Lisa Fahey and Kim McCall are also active Mormons, also conflicted.
Ms. FAHEY: That’s my whole point for speaking out — letting other people know that you can vote “no” or you can be for gay marriage and still be an active Mormon.
Ron Packard |
Mr. PACKARD: The church has a long tradition of encouraging thinking members to not be afraid to speak up — beginning with Brigham Young. He said doesn’t want blind allegiance. He wants people to pray about it, think about it, and come to their own conclusions.
SEVERSON: In the year 2000, a majority of California voters approved a proposition stating that only a marriage between a man and a woman was valid. Eight years later, the California Supreme Court ruled that the ban on gay marriage violated the state’s constitution, and that’s when the drive began to amend the constitution with Proposition 8, and that’s when church leaders sent out a letter to its members calling on them to donate their time and money to an unequivocal moral cause. Although many churches and a majority of Californian’s supported Proposition 8, Mormons were probably the most organized and donated almost half the $19 million generated for the campaign.
Mr. REES: And I think there’s no question that the church’s involvement in this was determinative. Many people were unprepared for the effectiveness of the church in doing what it does. I think the church was probably unprepared for such a strong negative response to its involvement.
SEVERSON: The church may also have been unprepared for the number of members who opposed the church’s proclamation. Members who are still active like Laura Compton, a church organist and mother of two, who operates a Web site called Mormonsformarriage.com. She says the site still gets lots of attention and in the run-up to Proposition 8 was getting thousands of hits a day.
LAURA COMPTON (Mormonsformarriage.com): The comments that we have gotten are a lot of members who say, “Thank you so much for creating this community. I felt so alone.” A lot who said, “Because you have this site, I’m able to continue going to church.” A lot of people who have called us to repentance for what we have been doing, and a lot of outside people who’ve said, “Thank you for showing us that not all Mormons, you know, want to take away our rights to marriage.”
Ms. FAHEY: It’s been really difficult to be a member of the church during this time. I’ve had a lot of people tell me that possibly I should be excommunicated, and that’s really hurt me, because I feel like I’m really a very loving, forgiving person.
Kim McCall and Lisa Fahey |
Mr. REES: The most unfortunate thing for me in all of this thing that happened over Proposition 8 was the divisiveness, the acrimony. Each side began in some sense emotionally and spiritually dis-fellowshipping or excommunicating the other side.
SEVERSON: Ron Packard says the most fierce opposition has come from gay rights advocates that have rallied against the church around the nation. He’s says he on a blacklist because he supported Proposition 8.
Mr. PACKARD: There’s some people who’ve lost their jobs because they supported Proposition 8.
SEVERSON (to Mr. Packard): Really?
Mr. PACKARD: Yeah.
KIM MCCALL (Member, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints): So one of the dynamics of the church over the last hundred years is to move more and more mainstream. Okay, we looked very sort of un-American. You know, Brigham Young was opposed to the Pledge of Allegiance [Editor's Note: Mr. McCall's statement about Brigham Young is in error. Brigham Young died in 1877. The Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892], and we looked really outside the mainstream, and there’s been a, you know, more American than thou now we’re the most patriotic people. Okay, we weren’t very monogamous. Now we’re more monogamous than everybody else. You know, we’ve got to be. You know, we’re so worried about polygamy in our history and how odd it makes us look that maybe we need to overreact.
Mr. REES: I think there is little question that a from a public relations point of view the church has suffered over its involvement in Proposition 8, and I know of people who have had second thoughts about joining the church over this issue. I know some of our missionaries have had a difficult time finding open doors and open hearts because of this.
Mr. PACKARD: A majority of the people of the United States don’t want same-sex marriages. So for the majority we may have, instead of getting a hit we get a halo. Whenever any organization gets involved in the political process, there’s going to be some who consider it a hit and others who feel that they’re a hero.
SEVERSON: Ron Packard says the church does not discriminate against gays, that his niece and some of his friends are gay, and that the church does not have a policy of denying the sacrament to homosexual members. But Lisa Fahey says there are still members who don’t understand what it means to be gay.
Laura Compton |
Ms. FAHEY: I even had some friends say that they still think that homosexuality is a choice. I don’t think the church leadership feels that way but members — some members feel that way, wrongly of course.
SEVERSON: Bob Rees says as a bishop he counseled gay and lesbian members who felt they were not wanted in the church.
Mr. REES: We have congregations who are not inclusive of the homosexual members of their congregations. We have families in which brothers and sisters don’t speak to one another over these issues, and I as a Christian, I can’t understand that. It breaks my heart.
SEVERSON: Laura Compton says since Proposition 8 the church leadership has become more flexible, making it known that members can still be in good standing even if they oppose the church’s position.
Ms. COMPTON: This has not challenged my faith, no. My faith is independent of the morality or the politics of gay marriage. It’s deeper. My faith is in a Christ who loves everybody and wants everyone to come to him, and a God that loves the world no matter whether they are Mormon or Muslim or Jewish or Catholic, and wants all of us to be there and all of us to treat each other like we’re brothers and sisters and not like we’re them and us.
Mr. REES: The function of faith communities is to make a home a for us, and I think that many of our Latter-day Saint brothers and sisters feel homeless, because we haven’t created a home for them. But I see that changing. I think there is much more understanding.
SEVERSON: As other states take up the issue of gay marriage, Mormon church leaders this time around have not asked members to get involved. Meanwhile, the California Supreme Court is once again considering the constitutionality of the ban on gay marriage. Their decision is expected soon.
For RELIGION & ETHICS NEWSWEEKLY, I’m Lucky Severson in San Francisco.
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One request: Please do not refer to yourself as a “former Mormon Bishop” or “active member”. Doing so appears to insinuate that you have a broader understanding of the Gospel, or that you have special credibility. Our Lay church teaches exactly the opposite. Your “former position” means nothing. What claiming this status really does to those of us who know our religion is reveal you as an imposter, or at least someone with no credibility as you never really understood our beliefs.
This is such a no brainer to me. As a member of the church if you understand the doctrine and the emphasis on families you can understand the strong urge from the leadership to the members to actively fight for marriage. We believe a marriage is ordained of God. And is between a man and a woman for the sole purpose to bring his children in the world. Most people understand that takes two of the opposite sex. Now our church usually never gets involved in politics unless it is something that our church is strongly opposed of. This is one of those things. End of story. Our church is based on the belief in a living prophet who speaks on behalf of God. If you really believe that, then you believe that since the prophet has spoken it God has spoken it. Can anyone really dispute God? It sounds like the problem is the faith that the prophet actually speaks for God. If you can’t believe that, then maybe this isn’t the right faith for you.
Bob #61 claims that “former” Bishops of the Mormon Church should not identify themselves as such because it misleads, and, to him, it identifies the perpetrator as an “imposter.”
Bob is free to make whatever judgments he will, but if knows his church teachings well he implies, he should know that once one is ordained a bishop, one REMAINS a bishop permanently. The “former” description suggests only that, for now, the Bishop does not have responsibility for a particular congregation.
Incidentally, “our lay church” is a phrase I’ve never heard before and I am a current life-long member with roots dating back to the earliest days of the church.
However, one’s former position does indeed mean something.
Years ago I considered taking a fairly a high-level position with a church-owned corporation. Part of the vetting process included interviews with several apostles, including the current President of the Church, Thomas S. Monson. During our conversation he noted that all of the senior officers of this particular organization were “former or current Stake Presidents and Bishops.” This was particularly memorable to me because, at the time, I had not previously served in either capacity.
Obviously, ones “former” callings means something to President Monson and other leaders of the church. And, I think they mean something to most other people on the planet. Except Bob.
The LDS view on Prop 8 is not logical nor is it moral. The people that are wanting to be treated equally are not being treated fairly and the LDS Curch is doing this for the publicity and converts they may gain from it. How can the sanctity of marriage be degraided when people who are gay or lesbian or even supporting it will not be allowed into the Temple anyhow to be sealed.
People have the right to be treated fairly and with rspect. I grew up in the segregation of the old South and remember how that process of change came about. People stood on the corners carrying signs protesting integration. They now look like blithering fools.
The LDS Church looks no less foolish and their intentions are obvious. They want the members. This is nothing more than a ploy for numbers. Nothing else comes to any organisation other than larger numbers and, …money. To attempt to put down a whole segment of society due to your incapabilities towards them is wrong. Christ forgave the guy in the cross, you would put them up there and drive the nails into their hands yourself. People can see whatyou are doin. Your members are quitting over it, your converts are dropping due to your christlike actions. anyone that would join a Church over politics…well, the church and that person deserve each other.
Don, in Las Vegas
I cannot believe what the Mormon Church did here. I’m from Arizona, where aside from Utah, our state founding pretty much was the Mormons, and had a huge influence. And we prospered from this.
The problem is, that this Prop 8 has gone nationwide. People in states far away from any Mormons now know about the Mormons, or at least they think they do, and certainly have an opinion. And unlike me, who grew up in Arizona, and lived next to Mormons, the rest of the country will always remember you guys for Prop 8. When the country thinks of Mormons, they will think of Prop 8.
That group that denied gays the right to marry because it was too much a burden on your moral conscience. I would think that since the Mormons have gone through hell in this country with discrimination and being kicked out from one place to the other, maybe they would have some sympathy for a group that was just simply wanting to marry. I guess not so.
You guys have taken a huge step back in regards to acceptance. I live in AZ, so I know you guys are cool. The rest of the country, not so much. Most of the self proclaimed Christians in this country doesn’t even believe you’re Christians.
Prop 8 will live with you guys for a long time. You will be known first and foremost as “that group that hates gays”. You’ll have to live with that. As you paid for it, and championed for it.
One step forward, two steps back. No wonder your missionaries are getting the cold shoulder. People think when they open the door to Elder Right or Elder Wrong, it’s gonna be about gay marriage.
I think what Kim McCall meant was that Brigham Young was opposed to the constitution on the United States. He just made a mistake
Can’t you just hear echoes of the Ayatollahs and Talibans in these “we know what God wants, so we’re going to hijack the civil law to impose our beliefs on everyone else” comments? This pernicious mindset is contrary to the very essence of what America stands for: the freedom of the individual to control his or her own life without government interference, so long as no direct harm is being done to other individuals.
It is truly pathetic that these holier-than-thou Pharisees lack the ability to see how outrageous their statements are. They expect others to receive mere pronouncements of their theology grandiosely titled as “Proclamation To The World” and such, and they naively think it will be accepted by others as a sufficient basis to adopt viciously discriminatory laws denying the most basic rights to millions of their fellow citizens. They feel free to denigrate people different from themselves with inane terms like “lifestyle choices”, always a dead giveaway of masked bigotry and prejudice. The only “lifestyle choice” involved here is that of narrow-minnded religious belief, not of sexual orientation.
The decision of the Mormon Church to involve its members and their LD$ money heavily in the Proposition 8 campaign was cynically designed to curry favor with exactly those religious constituencies that continue to harbor serious reservations about their Church and its theology.
(”Hey, maybe those Mormons aren’t so bad after all … and they’re just as anti-gay as we are!”)
Unfortunately, they’ve caused enormous damage to the previously admirable reputation of their Church for intelligence and tolerance for those who believe differently than they do (”We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.” Articles of Faith)
We have no problem with the Mormons not marrying same-sex couples in their churches, just as we have no quarrel with Orthodox Jews abstaining from cheeseburgers or Jehovah’s Witnesses refusing blood transfusions. But when it comes to the equal protection of the law for all of our citizens, we don’t need religious bullies trying to force others to live in conformance to their sectarian theologies.
There are a few people here who seem to have hit the nail on the head. Prop 8 is about the majority stating their beliefs. The Church (LDS) is one of many that requested help from its members to support this proposition.
Homosexuality is against the revealed word of God through all time. No one should be stating that those attractions aren’t valid and real. Promiscuous heterosexual relationships abound as well. The Church does not condone those relationships either. As others have stated, God loves the sinner, and despises the sin. He wants all to come to Him, by their choice, on His terms.
The Prop 8 hysteria directed against the LDS Church, both from those who purport to be LDS and those who are adamantly not, is nothing more than religious bigotry. The hate crimes instigated by those who attacked each other are contemptuous. Those hate crimes seem predominantly to be started by those opposed to the Mormons and their Constitutionally upheld right to oppose same-sex marriage.
The church has stated that it simply is excercising it’s “freedom of speech”. But, as a tax exempt non-profit organization, where does “freedom of speech” for an organized relgious group end and “separation of church and state” begin?
I’m shocked and saddened that the very liberties my great- great- great grandfathers sacrificed for here in America (the leader of the French Hugenot Party is my grandfather) are being threatened back to the days when the Catholic church WAS the law in Europe, and the Church of England was it’s only opposition.
Is there any wonder the true Gospel was restored in a land not yet perverted by the lack of separation of church and state?
Then why would the LDS faith, which I dearly love, and which was horrifically persecuted by early Americans for their marriage beliefs (plural marriage), and for their very religious rights (they were oftentimes driven from County to County, State to State, a hated people) ever dream of touching the Political process or of ever judging, condemning, or dividing those who have a different belief in marriage than they do?
I only ask everyone in Utah this one question: What is the highest suicide rate in your State? Answer: It’s among gay Mormon men because the Church would rather them just “go away” than be organized and accepted. Is the Church committing murder with the sword of indifference?
A church that has taken liberties with marriage (multiple plural marriages) will never have a right to take those same liberties from others, ever, unless they opt to marry once again, “Church and State” in a very dangerous hypocritical, polygamous union taking us all back to the days when “Bloody Mary” (I bet most Mormons don’t even know the story) actually carried out violence in order to force the Catholic prayer coda.
And, truly, do believing members REALLY have a voice in this?! Ha!
The Church professses to want freedom of speech but it’s members are clearly denied it and made to feel that they are not “worthy” or “believing” enough and that they are being separated as wheat and chaff for the Last Days.
I’m shocked at how often sisters in the above documentary have been attacked on this website. I have yet to read an intelligent response from the angry “Armies of Helaman” who feel the need to defend the Churches stealth involvement in the Political process, while completely ignoring what is happening to children all over the world who would love to be adopted by a clean, trustworthy, loving gay family.
This is my comment and not Hatchco. Let’s take this out of Judges hand and put it in the power of the people. Let the American people as a whole vote on this and let it be done with.
JIM PINNEGAR
The “Founders” crafted a constitution based upon majority rule and majority rights. Under the US Constitution, the majority is not free to vote on minority rights and the minority is not free to dicatate law to the majority. Thus in the US, the
the majority Shia in Iran would not have the freedom to tyranize the minority Sunni and the minority Sunni in Iraq would not have the freedom to tyranize the majority Shia.
Sexual preference…..what a joke! So go right ahead and joke around but just remember this, you have a choice and Heavenly Father will not force anyone to come back to Heaven. Ah, “free agency”, a two-edged sword. Your intellectual arguements won’t hold water on judgement day that is unless you plan on not comming, I think not.
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Why would any sane person pay attention to the Mormon “Church”leaders — they are an extremely reactionary group. Well-meaning and progressive Mormons should openly oppose them.
Now i’m thrilled that Prop 8 has been overturned. I am definitely not gay. Nonetheless I’m close friends with people who are. I merely really don’t understand exactly what the big problem is all about homosexual folks having the identical legal rights we have now.
All of the hate and propaganda on this site really makes me sad. Truth of the matter is that I was once like the majority here and believed that homosexuals should not be able to have legal marriages and that it was condemned by “God”. I was fed the lies that if gays were allowed to marry that it would destroy marriage and families. That was before I realized that organized religion is simple mind control based on fear and guilt. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I was a pastor in 3 churches over a 15 year span.
The real truth is that families are being torn apart because people who are in love are being told they cant express it the way everyone else is. I have friends who are same sex couples who are more in love (not about simple sex) than most man-woman relationships I have seen. Yet they are not allowed to express it in marriage. To make a vow to each other of love and commitment in front of God, man and government. The truth is that by my friends Karin and Jaque getting married in Ca, it didnt make any of your marriages dissolve or crumble. What it did do is break hearts of the two and those who love them.
Gays dont tell you that you cant worship in an LDS, Cristian, Catholic church…that is you business how you want to worship. What right do you have to tell other people who have no effect on your life what they can and cant do? I know the answer, I used to give it all the time…because God says it is wrong. And to that there is no logical response because you cant argue with faith. A person believes what he or she believes. People die for their beliefs. However, I have learned long ago that some one can be sincere, yet sincerely WRONG.
People are people. Gay, lesbian, transgender, Bi…white, black, Asian, ect. And all people should have equality no matter who they love just was much as equality for you who choose to pray to a certain God.
Thank you.
Any writer that takes the time to research a subject as thoroughly as you have deserves to be commended. This article is appealing and very well-written. The first two sentences encouraged me to read more.
No matter how well you articulate, perversion will always be perversion. Always!
Our society and even our own LDS membership may be confused about God’s plan for his children. He loves us and wants us to be happy, that is why we have law. If love was the answer for everything the hippies in the 70’s would have revolutionized the world.
A lot of what I wish to say has already being said. Just for the record, we believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. If this definition crumbles so does society. We have prophets who have warned us of this. I know that God has intended for man to marry woman and for woman to marry only man. Anything against this goes against the Plan of our Heavenly Father. We certainly don’t hate gays, but we can’t have even have one degree of tolerance for what they do.
63% of americans support marraige equality. (as of march 3 2012)
So this whole “most americans believe its between a man and a woman” = Untrue
Also a challenge to anyone defending unequality in america the land of the free… especially those using thier religious freedoms to do so; just reread your own damn posts, can you really say they arent hypocritical? Didnt think so…
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