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Tutu and Franklin: The Future (continue)

DR. FRANKLIN: You know, one can see that--if one can't see the world as a family, one can see it more narrowly, if you look, just look about you, and you'll see a family—

ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes.

DR. FRANKLIN: --that's different, within the family--

ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yeah.

DR. FRANKLIN: --there are these differences. There might be even differences of color--

ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes.

DR. FRANKLIN: --in one family. Surely, there are differences so far as ability is concerned--

ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes; yes.

DR. FRANKLIN: --in one family, and physiognomy in one family. So not all would be tall, not all would be short. Some would be different. Now, if you can have tha--those differences within one family, you ought to recognize the fact that this family must, by the very nature of the existence of it, respect each other.

ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yeah; yeah.

DR. FRANKLIN: Love each other. Regard each other as, as, as members of a family.

ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes.

DR. FRANKLIN: And, and have that kind of feeling that each member deserves. Now, if you can have that on the--on that small level, that, that individual level of the family, then you can think big--

ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yeah; yeah.

DR. FRANKLIN: --and you can think in grand terms about the world being the same kind of family, and the things that you suggested, it would be easy to conceive--

ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes.

DR. FRANKLIN: --by moving from the small--

ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes.

DR. FRANKLIN: --to the large.

ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Absolutely. I, I would, I would hope, I mean, that your eloquence will have begun to persuade some people, begin to look at things like defense budgets, where we spend obscene amounts of money for destruction and death, when we know that a very minute fraction of those budgets would enable God's children, everywhere, to have enough to eat, to have decent education, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and that would begin to see that our own survival does depend on our recognizing that we have brothers and sisters over there. And God sometimes tries to ram it down our--now I mean, really try to knock sense into our heads. You look at the economy of the world. You had trouble in Asia. It's not confined to Asia. Immediately, it has repercussions for the entire global economy, and it seems not to dawn on us that God is saying, "For goodness sake, recognize you are family."

DR. FRANKLIN: Yes. By the same token, we have other ways of looking at, at that, at that same problem. You know, in the United States, we spend enormous quantities for the incarceration of people.

ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes.

DR. FRANKLIN: The finest and most modern building in my home town is the jail.

ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yeah.

DR. FRANKLIN: We spend--that's really billions of dollars, each year, to keep people in jail, in prison. To confine them. To, to keep them away from society. And yet, at the same time, in the same community, we will debate week in and week out, day--month in and month out, about increasing the appropriations for schools--

ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yeah.

DR. FRANKLIN: --by a fraction. Or increasing the opportunities for young people to learn a trade, or an occupation. To withhold opportunities for better health and so forth. We, we don't seem to realize that one way in which we can improve the human condition, and, indeed, prevent not only the incarceration of people, but, but limit warfare as well--

ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes.

DR. FRANKLIN: --by refocusing and redirecting our energies and our resources in the direction that will be constructive and helpful and, indeed, will be for the improvement--

ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yeah.

DR. FRANKLIN: --of man's condition.

ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Let me ask you, as sort of one tiny question, maybe one that if, when you have answered, would be almost a good point at which to close our conversation. Having regard to all of the things that you and I have been discussing in our conversations, looking at the state of the world--are you pessimistic? Or are you hopeful about the future of the world, of humankind?

DR. FRANKLIN: I've been asked that question a number of times, particularly in the last 15 or 18 months, as I have sought to chair the President's Advisory Board, and I have reviewed the months and the reactions of people to what we have been trying to do, and I have been encouraged by the enthusiasm which they have expressed in the very idea of approaching the question of human relations, the relations of races, in a constructive and healthy manner.That so many people are relieved that in peacetime, relative peacetime, so far as races are concerned, in our country we have been able to talk about the matter.

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