Brian Stelter discusses ‘Network of Lies’ and how Fox maintains its brand

Read the Full Transcript

• Amna Nawaz:

  After decades at the helm of News Corp, Rupert Murdoch officially stepped aside this week, taking on the new role of chairman emeritus.

  What does this leadership change mean for the future of a network so deeply tied to and influential within the Republican Party?

  Brian Stelter is the author of the new book "Network of Lies: The Epic Saga of FOX News, Donald Trump, and the Battle for American Democracy." He's also a special correspondent for "Vanity Fair."

  Brian, welcome back to the "NewsHour."

  Brian Stelter, Author, "Network of Lies: The Epic Saga of FOX News, Donald Trump, and the Battle for American Democracy": Thank you. Great to be here.

• Amna Nawaz:

  So let's talk about this change, leadership change. What does it mean for the company?

• Brian Stelter:

  Well, it is, in effect, Rupert Murdoch giving his final wishes, presenting his plan for the future when he's longer with us.

  He wants his son Lachlan, his eldest son, to run the companies, News Corp and FOX Corp. I think he also wants them to recombine at some point and get re-merged. He is presenting this plan in public. And Rupert says he wants to remain active and involved. He's going to say that again possibly on Friday when this takes effect at FOX Corporation.

  But it is an end of an era. It's the closest thing to him ever retiring.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Do the father and son have vastly different views when it comes to what the role of FOX in particular should be?

• Brian Stelter:

  Not politically. Lachlan is conservative. He doesn't like Donald Trump, but he doesn't hate Donald Trump the way Rupert reportedly does.

  Rupert detests Trump. Lachlan just doesn't care as much about politics. He's much more of a businessman. He wants to trains to run on time, that proverbial saying. He wants to minimize headaches and maximize profits. And so what that might mean is, that might mean a lack of oversight at FOX News, but we just don't know what 2024 really holds yet.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Well, we know the role that FOX played in spreading the lie of the stolen election in 2020.

  On that point, you write this in the book. You say: "Rupert and Lachlan Murdoch let it happen. If father and son have regrets, they have not expressed any publicly."

  Was there any kind of internal reckoning after that and after the lawsuit that resulted from that and the $787 million they had to pay?

• Brian Stelter:

  It was an incredible case, an incredible case. And it's not the only one, Smartmatic and other companies still suing FOX. There are numerous defamation lawsuits by individuals and there are shareholder lawsuits.

  So I have only seen tinkering around the edges at FOX, no major changes, no major overhaul. In fact, one of the biggest changes was the dismissal of several of the truth-tellers of FOX, several of the executives and staffers who were calling the election correctly in 2020.

• Amna Nawaz:

  You mentioned Lachlan is more of a business-focused guy. Was the firing of Tucker Carlson more of a moral decision or a business one?

• Brian Stelter:

  Entirely a business decision.

  But there were many reasons to do it. Tucker Carlson was hurting the company's bottom line, because advertisers were not attracted to him. He was putting conspiracy theorists on the air, causing the network to be sued. There were lots and lots of reasons to cancel the show.

  And what's happened in the six months since is, FOX has once again — it's drawn that audience, it's brought that audience back. FOX remains the beating heart of the GOP, which I think is why it deserves study and scrutiny.

• Amna Nawaz:

  It was that Dominion lawsuit that ended up sharing so many of those internal messages.

• Brian Stelter:

  Yes.

• Amna Nawaz:

  We learned so much about the company. You write about it and share so many of them in the book.

  And there's one exchange when their White House correspondent, Jacqui Heinrich, tweets an accurate report about there being no evidence of voter fraud.

• Brian Stelter:

  Right.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Prime-time hosts Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity in private messages say she should be fired.

• Brian Stelter:

  Yes.

• Amna Nawaz:

  They complain to executives.

  And you write this: "Executive producer Robert Samuel responded that it's amazing how many FOX staffers seem to hate the audience. 'You don't have to love Trump,' he wrote, 'but you have to respect the audience.'"

  What did you take away from that?

• Brian Stelter:

  It's the most Orwellian phrase, respect the audience. What they really mean is, we don't want to tick the audience off. We don't want to tell them anything they don't want to hear. We don't want to discomfort them or upset them with the truth, the truth that month — and, remember 2020 — was that Biden was the next president.

  But FOX whispered the truth and shouted the lie instead. They gave false hope about a second Trump term. And I think really some — I think we can say for sure that some people bought tickets to fly to Washington January 6 because of all that nonsense they were hearing on television.

  So when you have these FOX producers, executives, Sean Hannity as well saying we need to respect the audience, what they really meant was, we're going to disrespect the audience, because we're going to hide the truth from them.

  And I think it's — one of the silver linings here is that at least these e-mails and texts have become public. At least there is a public record, so we know what these hosts and producers were really saying and thinking.

• Amna Nawaz:

  What do we know now about the relationship between FOX and the current front-runner for the GOP presidential nomination, Donald Trump?

• Brian Stelter:

  In some ways, this is a broken marriage.

  It's a sort of like a divorce, where they're sharing custody of a shared base, of a shared audience. Both FOX and Trump, they're talking to the same constituents, talking to the same people, firing up the same base. But Trump is not happy with what he sees on FOX. He will never be happy. He will never be happy with any media coverage. He always wants more sycophantic media coverage.

  And so he often rails about FOX on his TRUTH Social. But, at the end of the day, in a general election, if he's the nominee, he will come home. He always does.

• Amna Nawaz:

  When you step back and look at how we today, journalists today are covering this election, do you feel like we have learned lessons from the past?

• Brian Stelter:

  Well, I think your segment earlier this week about autocratic behavior, about the language Trump is using is really important. We need to see that all across the American media, including in the right-wing media.

  And that's where I doubt we're actually going to see the honest conversations that need to be had about the impact of Trump's rhetoric and his promises about a second term. But let's take the non-FOX media for a moment. Yes, we need fact-checking. We need more of that. But we also need history-checking. We need reality-checking.

  This is bigger than just facts at this point. This is about two different realities that are colliding, one that is much more tied to truth and the reality, and then this other story that Trump is selling about revenge, about grievance, about retribution.

  Look, I think we're very early in this primary, but I would like to see the coverage amped up quite a bit on that front in order to help people who are not news junkies. I feel like I know what's going on, but most people are tuned out right now about the 2024 election. It's time to tune in.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Brian Stelter, he is the author of the new book "Network of Lies: The Epic Saga of FOX News, Donald Trump, and the Battle for American Democracy," a fascinating read.

• Brian Stelter:

  Thank you.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Brian, thanks for being here.

• Brian Stelter:

  Thanks.