Brooks and Capehart on Trump’s latest indictment and climate politics

Amna Nawaz:

For analysis on climate policy, as well as the latest indictment of former President Trump, we turn now to Brooks and Capehart.

That is New York Times columnist David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart, associate editor for The Washington Post.

David, Jonathan, good to see you both.

Jonathan Capehart:

Hi, Amna.

David Brooks:

Good to see you.

Amna Nawaz:

All right.

I wanted to revisit a quick look at William's report there, because one number really stuck out to me, and I want to get your take on it. When Americans are asked about whether or not climate change is a major threat, overall, about 56 percent say yes it is.

But when you break it down into partisan lines here — this is among Republicans — only 28 percent think it's a major threat, 37 say it's a minor threat, 33 don't believe it's a threat at all.

David, there's a little bit of a chicken-and-egg argument here. Republican candidates aren't talking about it because people don't think it's a threat. But if they talked about it more, would people think it's a threat?

David Brooks:

I think so.

I'm old enough to go back to John McCain and Lindsey Graham 20 years ago, who supported — who proposed a big climate change bill. Back then, you had Republicans and Democrats both with climate change proposals. Back then, there was about a 20-point gap between Democratic views of climate change and Republican. Now it's a 50-point gap.

And so why is that? Well, one, everything's more polarized. Two, Republicans are more manufacturing than they used to be. And, three, and I think most important, it's just become a sign of political machismo that whatever polite opinion — if polite opinion says A, then we say Z.

And so, drill, baby drill, is a way to offend the elites. And the weird thing is that, if you look at a bunch of other numbers — and I looked at some Pew data — three-quarters of Americans support global climate change treaties, 69 think — percent we should be carbon-neutral, 66 percent support government subsidies for wind and solar.

So the Republicans who have taken this extreme position are not only, in my view, going against the science. They're going against pretty large majorities on a bunch of these subissues.

Amna Nawaz:

Well, Jonathan, this is grounded in science and data, right? But climate change has now taken on a political tenor.

One of my first bosses said it's better to be effective than to be right.

(Laughter)

Amna Nawaz:

So, can you, can anyone, Republican leadership, find an effective way to convey that message to their electorate?

Jonathan Capehart:

I don't know.

I mean, talk about chicken and egg, they're so worried about primary challenges and looking like they're bending to the woke crowd that they won't do things that are affecting their own constituents in real time. I don't remember — and you stole my line, because I'm old enough to remember John McCain and Lindsey Graham being the Republicans leading — helping to lead the charge and be serious about climate change.

And yet, this summer, we have seen spectacular stories, and bad spectacular, the ocean off Florida above 100 degrees, heat domes over various parts of this country, but also Europe and Asia, the wildfires that are turning cities orange because of the smoke blowing from Canada, not to mention the wildfires burning from Portugal to Turkey because of the high temperatures.

So, if the politicians don't think that it's something that needs to be addressed, there are people — their own constituents are living through it right now.

Amna Nawaz:

A topic I'm sure we will return to.

It may not be a big election issue, but we know Mr. Trump's ongoing legal issues will certainly be a big issue in the next election. As we should remind viewers, he was indicted again on federal charges this week, this time for his efforts to overturn his 2020 election loss.

Today, online, he alleged those charges are what he calls election interference. He called them fake charges filed against him by the corrupt Biden DOJ. He says that they waited and waited until he became dominant in the polls.

David, what strikes me is three indictments and 78 felony charges later, it seems like those indictments and charges are actually fueling his dominance.

David Brooks:

Oh, for sure.

When I look back at the political year, I think the Mar-a-Lago raid was a turning point, and that he's gotten stronger and stronger. And he's not only dominating the Republican field. He's stronger right now against Joe Biden than he was at any point in 2020. So, his political fortunes have risen and risen.

We still got to do this. I mean, the one thing that I'm impressed by about this current indictment is, first, it goes at the core threat here. Donald Trump does a lot of bad stuff, but the threat to democracy is the core threat. And so that puts this front and center.

Second, this indictment rises organically from all the other indictments that have been brought against all the January 6 people. So, they started with the foot soldiers. They moved up to the promise keepers, and now they're going to the top.

But it's the same sorts of charges. It's very conventional, and it just flows organically from the indictments that have already been brought. So it seems reasonably legitimate to me. Telling that to the mass public, who are cynical and distrustful, that, don't worry, most things are pretty fair in this town, that's not really a good story that a lot of people believe.

It happens to be something I generally believe.

Amna Nawaz:

Jonathan, what do you make of that?

Jonathan Capehart:

I agree with David on this, but also because this indictment, of the two others we have seen, and maybe the others that — to come, is one that is easy to understand.

But, also, the American people understand this because they witnessed it with their own eyes, even though insurrection is not part of the charge. But they watched all the things happen in real time that led to this indictment. They have read the stories. They have read the tweets. They have seen the news accounts, however they're getting them.

And this will be a trial. This will be a case that they will be able to follow in the same easy way that they did the January 6 hearings. The only difference is that they won't be able to see them.

Amna Nawaz:

In terms of how it plays in the Republican field, we should note that there's only a minority of fellow Republican candidates who are saying that Mr. Trump shouldn't be running.

Most of them are echoing his claims that there's been a weaponization of government, that this is a political witch-hunt. That includes Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, who just today in Iowa was asked about the charges and said he believes they're politically motivated.

David, it's worth noting his single biggest individual donor, a man named Robert Bigelow, who's donated some $20 million to Mr. DeSantis' super PAC, said today he's not going to give him any more money until he has more major donors and he moderates his message.

Is that going to change Mr. DeSantis' path going forward?

(Laughter)

David Brooks:

This guy Bigelow thinks he's going to moderate his message. Where's this guy been for the last three years?

(Laughter)

David Brooks:

I mean, Ron DeSantis is doing the Ron DeSantis thing. He's chosen his strategy, which is to outflank Trump on the right. It's not working, and none of the other candidates are particularly working.

I really don't see a crack in the Republican primary phalanx that wants to support Donald Trump. And I do — if your core story, which Donald Trump's core story, is that educated elites are out to get us, then these indictments fit into that story. And that's why it's helped him, essentially.

Amna Nawaz:

But is that a message that helps his rivals in the primaries too?

Jonathan Capehart:

No. No, if I'm understanding the question correctly.

(Laughter)

Jonathan Capehart:

Because, I mean, Ron DeSantis is not going to beat Donald Trump, because if folks have to choose between Coke and New Coke, they're going to choose Coke.

You're going to choose between Trump and Trump-lite, you're going to go with Trump. That works in the Republican primary. And you can't try to beat Trump, and then think you're going to get the nomination, and then tack back to the middle. You're so far gone from the middle that there's no amount of tacking back to the middle that would make you palatable to the broad sweep of the American public, who find what particularly Ron DeSantis this has done in Florida to be objectionable.

Amna Nawaz:

We talk about the impact all this has on the election in that context, but, even broader than that, the impact this language about the weaponization of government is having on our democracy.

There's a striking number I have to ask you about from our recent poll. Americans were asked about their overall confidence in the FBI. It is now at an all-time low. Among Democrats, it's actually gone up four points. This is since back in 2018. Among independents, it's down 12 points. Among Republicans, David, it has tanked a whopping 24 points.

And you have noted before this is part of a larger point. But when you look at that, doesn't that number worry you?

David Brooks:

Yes, well, to me, the number one most important statistic in my life covering this stuff has been, two generations ago, you asked people, do you trust government to do the right thing most of the time, and 75 percent said yes.

And now, what is it, 12 percent 19 percent? It bounces around, but it's phenomenally low. And so imagine walking around the city where I live in Washington, D.C., looking at all — what I think of as glorious and inspiring buildings and thinking, that's full of monsters, all that's illegitimate, it's all a fraud.

To me, I can't even imagine that mind-set, to be honest. But it is a mind-set that a lot of people have and, frankly, because of things that have happened over the last 30 or 40 years, a lot of people feel is justified. It probably is justified because of the failures of a lot of things that have happened in this country over that time.

Amna Nawaz:

You agree with that, Jonathan?

Jonathan Capehart:

I get that.

But it also is the result of people who know better not acting better and not speaking better, knowing full well that what's being said about the FBI, what's being said about government, what's being said about innocent people is wrong, and not standing up to it and saying, no — at the time, no, President Trump, that is not true, no, President Trump, you should not do that, and standing up, as leaders in the Republican Party, but also leaders of this country, and saying, this is not right, this is not correct, this is not who we are as a party, and this is not who we are as a nation.

If someone with the moral courage to do that had done that, we would be, I think, in a much stronger position than we are now.

David Brooks:

Yes, I know some people in the FBI. I can tell you they are not left-wing, pointy-headed intellectuals.

(Laughter)

David Brooks:

They are like tough Americans, tough, smart Americans.

And so some Republicans should be able to say, actually, these people are pretty impressive.

Amna Nawaz:

Do you see that happening, in 20 seconds we have left?

David Brooks:

Oh, heck no.

(Laughter)

Amna Nawaz:

On that note, David Brooks, Jonathan Capehart, always good to see you both.

Thank you so much. Have a good weekend.

Jonathan Capehart:

You too, Amna.