CIA and Senate battle over a report on interrogation tactics

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• JUDY WOODRUFF:

  We turn now to a battle over making public a Senate report on the CIA's interrogation tactics.

  In 2009, the Intelligence Committee launched its investigation. Three years later, the 5,000-page classified report was finalized. The CIA disputed some of the conclusions. Earlier this year, senators learned the CIA searched Senate computers without notifying the committee. And in April, the committee voted to release a summary of the report.

  But the CIA has insisted on more redactions to protect agency assets and secrets.

  We will hear from a former CIA official in a moment.

  But we begin with a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee. He is Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon.

  Senator, welcome to the program.

  SEN. RON WYDEN, (D) Oregon: Thank you, Judy.

• JUDY WOODRUFF:

  Why is it you want this report released?

• SEN. RON WYDEN:

  Judy, the CIA leadership maintained for years that torturing prisoners was essential to obtaining information, that we weren't able to get the information we needed to protect our country without torture.

  What this report shows is that a number of the claims that the CIA leadership made about the value of enhanced interrogation simply was untrue. And, regrettably, it looks like the culture of misinformation at the CIA leadership is still going strong.

• JUDY WOODRUFF:

  But isn't the reluctance to release it, doesn't that have to do with making public the identity of agents, methods, operations that the CIA and others believe needs to be secret?

• SEN. RON WYDEN:

  Judy, I don't take a backseat to anybody in terms of protecting our agents who are undercover.

  In fact, a number of years ago, I wrote legislation with Senator Bond on a bipartisan basis to increase the penalties for outing one of our agents. What the CIA is doing here is trying to obscure key facts and trying to keep the real story from coming out. Of course I would be in favor of redacting any specific identifying information about our very valuable undercover agents.

• JUDY WOODRUFF:

  Well, one of the key facts — just give us a sense of what is a key fact that you think must come out that the CIA and the administration, whoever is making this decision, is saying no?

• SEN. RON WYDEN:

  Well, this report is about misdeeds, mistakes and utter falsehoods.

  And the reality is, is the CIA is asking for something that is unprecedented. For 40 years, since the days of the Church Committee, we have used pseudonyms in order to protect our undercover agents. But if you don't allow pseudonyms, for example, you can't even tell whether we're talking about different people or the same people, and you're obscuring what the narrative and what the public accounting is really all about.

• JUDY WOODRUFF:

  Well, it's my understanding that the concern — one of the concerns expressed is that even using pseudonyms could be traced to particular individuals and places.

• SEN. RON WYDEN:

  I don't believe that stripping out the specific identifying information will cause a problem.

  Judy, the reality is, for 40 years, we have never seen a demand like the CIA is making now. The CIA is asking that all pseudonyms, all of them be stripped out. That wasn't done with the Church Committee. That wasn't done with Iran Contra. That wasn't done with Abu Ghraib.

  What the CIA is asking for is unprecedented. And it's very clear what they're interested in obscuring the facts and covering up a really accurate narrative.

• JUDY WOODRUFF:

  Senator Ron Wyden, member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, we thank you.

• SEN. RON WYDEN:

  Thank you.

• JUDY WOODRUFF:

  And for perspective from the CIA side, joining us now is John Rizzo, who spent 34 years in the agency's Office of General Counsel. He's also the author of the book "Company Man" about his time in the CIA.

  So, John Rizzo, you heard what Senator Wyden is saying. He is saying, this is unprecedented, what the CIA is asking for.

  JOHN RIZZO, Author, "Company Man": Well, first of all, I should make clear that I have not seen the report, not for a lack of trying.

  Several weeks ago, I and former CIA officials who were deeply involved in the program asked for the opportunities to at least read it before it's released to the world. So I have no idea, as we sit here today, anything about the content of that report.

  As for the use of pseudonyms, again, it's all context. But…

• JUDY WOODRUFF:

  And we should clarify, again, we're talking about substituting pseudonyms, other names for the names of actual people who provided information.

• JOHN RIZZO:

  That's correct.

  And I also should make clear that we're not talking here about deleting the names of senior people, like myself, who are public figures. I mean, all of us, I assume, are going to be named by name in the report, and that's fine.

  What we're talking about here is about the names of undercover operatives, many of whom are still operating in secret around the world performing dangerous assignments.

• JUDY WOODRUFF:

  But, as you heard Senator Wyden say, in all that years — that in the modern era, he said, going back to the Church report, back in the 1970s, this is not something that the CIA has done, has insisted on. Why is it different now? Why is it so important to keep this report back until this name issue gets resolved?

• JOHN RIZZO:

  Well, again, it's all context.

  But I can certainly see — foresee a situation — this report is, what, the executive summary is 600 pages' long. If these pseudonyms, if the same pseudonym for the same person appears at various parts in that report describing the circumstances, what he or she was doing and what country he or she was in, those who are willing to take the time — and, believe me, there are people out there willing to take the time — can piece together the two identities, or at least there's a possibility.

  And if there's even a possibility of that, I honestly don't see — I mean, this report is about the program. The agency ran the program. The people who carried it out in the trenches, you know, why should their safety be potentially compromised?

• JUDY WOODRUFF:

  Just last question, do you think a compromise is possible here? This has been going on for months.

• JOHN RIZZO:

  Look, I and many of my colleagues would like to see this report come out. It's been hanging fire for a long time and it's been drip, drip of leaks. We all want to see it come out.

  I hope an arrangement can be made. I would note finally that it's not the CIA that's driving this process. It's the White House, the administration, the Obama administration, the president's — the president's chief of staff. So to characterize this as purely a CIA machination to hold up the report is simply unfair and doesn't reflect reality.

• JUDY WOODRUFF:

  All right, John Rizzo, former general counsel for the CIA, we thank you for talking with us.

• JOHN RIZZO:

  Thank you, Judy.

• JUDY WOODRUFF:

  Appreciate it.