Delays in Trump insurrection case pushes court dates further into election season

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• Geoff Bennett:

  Former President Donald Trump's legal battles have reached a critical moment, as two upcoming court decisions could shape his campaign and his businesses.

  In Washington, the former president's federal trial for election interference has been delayed while an appeals court rules on Donald Trump's argument that he's immune from prosecution. And a verdict in the New York civil fraud trial has been pushed back.

  Our William Brangham has been following the latest developments, and he joins us now.

  William, it's always good to see you.

  So we have been waiting on this appeals court to rule on Donald Trump's claim of immunity. What's the latest with that?

• William Brangham:

  That's right.

  As you just said, Jack Smith, special counsel Jack Smith's election subversion case is completely frozen waiting for this immunity ruling. And the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals initially set this on an expedited path, fast hearings, fast briefs, and so everyone thought a ruling would happen quickly, but it hasn't.

  It's been four weeks now and near radio silence. And it's all the more striking because, in the hearing that they held, the three judges on this panel, two appointed by Biden, one by Bush Sr., seemed very skeptical of Trump's immunity argument, which, if you remember, the president and his legal team, the former president, argued that because these alleged election crimes occurred while he was president, he should be immune from prosecution from them completely.

  And this led one of the judges, Florence Pan, to sort of stretch this hypothetical to its extreme. And she asked Trump's lawyers, so if the former president had ordered SEAL Team Six to execute a political rival and Congress didn't impeach Trump for that, he would be immune from prosecution, she asked?

  And Trump's lawyers eventually admitted, yes, that is what we mean. So, a great deal of skepticism towards this case.

• Geoff Bennett:

  So, if Donald Trump loses this case, the immunity claim, what does that mean for the overall federal January 6 case?

• William Brangham:

  Well, he most likely would appeal to the appeals court to have the entire court, all 11 judges, not the three, hear it. He could also appeal to the Supreme Court to listen to this case.

  If either of those courts took that up, that would further delay the January 6 case, to the point where we could be in a position where this case doesn't start until summer, fall, and then you have the former president campaigning for president when he's required to be in court on this major federal case.

  I mean, it's a very, very complicated situation. A lot of pressure would be brought on Judge Tanya Chutkan, who's overseeing this case, to postpone or to push it off. She so far has shown no interest in doing that.

  But the flip side of that is that many people argue that it is simply unacceptable for voters to go into a presidential election not knowing the innocence or the guilt of Donald Trump as to whether he tried to subvert the previous election.

• Geoff Bennett:

  And then add to all of that, William, the New York civil fraud trial. What's the latest there?

• William Brangham:

  Last week, we were supposed to have heard from Judge Arthur Engoron about that case. He then said at the end of the week that he needs a little bit more time to make his ruling.

  This case, as we have reported in the past, is about what penalty Donald Trump and his associates should be getting for this decade-long fraud that they committed, that the judge has ruled that they did commit. And so this is a penalty phase. The attorney general in New York wants hundreds of millions of dollars from former president and his business associates and wants him banned from doing work in New York.

  That ruling is coming any day now, but, again, could be a major, major blow to the former president.

• Geoff Bennett:

  William Brangham tracking it all for us.

  William, thanks so much.

• William Brangham:

  My pleasure.