El Salvador’s vice president discusses controversial crackdown on gangs, upcoming election

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• Amna Nawaz:

  This weekend, El Salvador is holding its general election, and all eyes are on incumbent President Nayib Bukele. He came to power in 2019 and has since overseen a vast and brutal crackdown on gangs that terrorized the nation for decades, arresting more than 75,000 people.

  His popularity has soared, but his government has been accused of mass human rights abuses and dismantling democratic institutions. Judges allied with Bukele reinterpreted a constitutional ban on reelection, clearing his path to run for a second term, along with his vice president, Felix Ulloa, who sat down with me in San Salvador earlier this week.

  I asked him how long his country can continue with mass arrests and detentions.

• Felix Ulloa:

  This is a big change.

  And this happened because our policies regarding the — dealing with the gangs, the violence in the community, and the decision by the president, Bukele, to face this challenge. For us, when we took office, it was the first challenge to bring back the peace, the harmony to the communities that were under the control of the gangs.

  So, once we declared the war against the gangs in year 2022, we started dealing with these criminal structures. Now we have over 76,000 captured inmates coming from those structures. And the issue of the sustainability of this process, as we said, is now in the hands of the population.

  Because now the people trust in the institutions, we can say that this is a new country.

• Amna Nawaz:

  At the same time, you have gone from having the highest murder rate in the world to now having the highest incarceration rate in the world.

  The criticism is that there are a lot of innocent people being rounded up and detained. I mean, can you continue with that?

• Felix Ulloa:

  Take a look to the big picture.

  We have so far 76,000 inmates. From those, most of, 90 percent of them are verified that they belong to the gangs and to the criminal structure.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Ninety percent of them?

• Felix Ulloa:

  Ninety percent, because from all these persons that have been captured over these two years that the state of exception was in place, more than 6,000 has been released, because they prove in court that they were innocent.

• Amna Nawaz:

  But 6,000 people — if I may, that's basically one out of every 10 or so people that you're rounding up — is innocent.

• Felix Ulloa:

  That, we will see.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Is that acceptable to you as a rate?

• Felix Ulloa:

  I mean, we try to do our best, but we're not perfect. We are human beings, and human beings make mistakes.

• Amna Nawaz:

  What about those who have yet to be released, those who are still detained?

• Felix Ulloa:

  I mean, it's part of the job. I mean, if you want to have a perfect job, you can never get it, because the perfect is enemy of the good.

  If you want to do it perfect, you will never say that. So you have to do your best, and you have the duty and the responsibility to recognize your mistakes.

• Amna Nawaz:

  At the same time, one of the reforms I know that's been pushed through has meant mass hearings are now acceptable.

• Felix Ulloa:

  Yes.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Up to 900 people in a single hearing?

• Felix Ulloa:

  Yes, absolutely.

• Amna Nawaz:

  How is that justice?

• Felix Ulloa:

  Absolutely, this is an innovation of the penal law. El Salvador…

• Amna Nawaz:

  An innovation?

• Felix Ulloa:

  It's an innovation.

• Amna Nawaz:

  For 900 people to be tried at the same time?

• Felix Ulloa:

  Yes.

• Amna Nawaz:

  That's due process to you?

• Felix Ulloa:

  It's due process, because it's under the law to do that in a legal process in court. You have to create the provision in the penal code.

  So we modified this responsibility, which is — in the past was personal.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Yes.

• Felix Ulloa:

  How long you will take to conduct individual process for 76,000? It will take 100 years to do that.

  So the only way is to proceed and to charge the structure.

• Amna Nawaz:

  The criticism, as you know, is that this denies people due process, that there's no way hundreds of people can get a fair trial at the same time.

  What I hear you saying in your mind, though, is that the end justifies the means. Is that correct?

• Felix Ulloa:

  Oh, no, no, no, no, no, that's not correct.

  What I'm saying is, in El Salvador, you are witnessing a different country for the 21st century. If you were a lawyer, you could understand. I am a lawyer. And I study penal law from all the doctrines, different doctrines.

• Amna Nawaz:

  As a lawyer, could you defend 900 people at the same time?

• Felix Ulloa:

  Yes. Why not? Because you are not defending 900 people. You are defending one, one only accused, which is the structure.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Can I ask about another reform that I know has gotten a lot of attention?

• Felix Ulloa:

  Yes, of course. Yes.

• Amna Nawaz:

  The law was changed so that children can be treated as adults in the legal system. That was lowered from the age of 16 to 12.

• Felix Ulloa:

  Yes.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Twelve seems very young to treat someone as an adult in the legal system. Help us understand why that was necessary.

• Felix Ulloa:

  Yes, do you know why? Because young people from 12, 13 years can kill you. And they went to kill you, and they were sent to kill people, because the leaders of the gangs, they understood that, under 16 years old, they were not charged as an adult.

  So they sent the kids to kill people.

• Amna Nawaz:

  So they should be charged and treated in the legal system as adults?

• Felix Ulloa:

  I mean, tell me, what else could you try?

  (Crosstalk)

• Amna Nawaz:

  Is there any duty for the state to protect those children, to rehabilitate them?

• Felix Ulloa:

  Well, absolutely.

  But this common — now you are facing young people under 16 years old, 15, 14, they have two, three, four homicides. And the law, the general terms, allow to the gangs to kill people without being charged or escaping of the justice. Now we try that. We close that. The — it was like a loophole that was in the law. And then we close that loophole.

• Amna Nawaz:

  As you mentioned, you are a constitutional lawyer.

• Felix Ulloa:

  Yes.

• Amna Nawaz:

  And you have previously said, when you looked at your Constitution, that it was very clear that it did not allow for consecutive presidential terms. That all changed in 2021, when Supreme Court magistrates who were appointed by President Bukele, they reinterpreted that clause to say he could run again.

  So here we are now. You and he are both running again for consecutive terms. Do you worry that it weakens the Constitution to have judges who are viewed as allies of President Bukele change it in his favor?

• Felix Ulloa:

  No.

  I mean, do you think that the legal system in the United States will be weakened because the member — the justice of the Supreme Court were appointed by President Trump? No, I mean, this is the way that the system…

  (Crosstalk)

• Amna Nawaz:

  Well, I'm asking about here in El Salvador, though.

• Felix Ulloa:

  No, no, no, what I'm saying is, it works in any place under the rule of law and in the democratic process.

  These Supreme Court chambers, they protect the Constitution. They said — you can quote that, Article 152, Number 1. You check that, you will find the legal base to run for President Bukele, because that article said, the person who is in the presidency, if he wants to run for another period has to fulfill two conditions.

  First, he should be in the first term, because, if he was in the second term, he can't run. And, second, he has to take a leave of absence.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Can I ask you, when the court ruled that this new interpretation of the Constitution was coming out, U.S. officials came out and said that decision undermines democracy. Do you agree with that?

• Felix Ulloa:

  Yes, because they don't know the legal Constitution.

• Amna Nawaz:

  So, you're saying they misunderstood it?

• Felix Ulloa:

  Absolutely, absolutely, 100 percent.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Can I ask how you would characterize the current relationship between El Salvador and the U.S.?

• Felix Ulloa:

  It's really, really good. We have an excellent ambassador.

  And in the past, there were some misunderstandings, because the type of ambassadors that we had or the envoys from the administration here, they were too junior. They didn't understand what was going on. They came, they were going to the backyard. And that's when the president said, no, you're not coming to the backyard. This is a sovereign country.

  So, once we respect each other, the relations are better. I mean, for us, the United States is one of the most important allies that we have. You know, our population, a fifth percent of our population lives in the United States. What we want is to maintain a good relation with a state which has our ally, our friends. And we want — as the president said, we want to be partners.

  Let us treat as partners. So, in doing that, to do business, you have to maintain good relationship. And that's we are maintaining now with this U.S. administration and whatever could be elected in November this year. I mean, because it's not a matter of political preference.

  We're not Democrats. We're not Republicans. We respect any administration, any presidency that is elected by American people.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Vice President Felix Ulloa, thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate it.

• Felix Ulloa:

  My pleasure.