Examining RFK Jr.’s claims about vaccines, COVID and the health of Americans

Amna Nawaz:

In that hearing today, Secretary Kennedy made a number of questionable or misleading claims about vaccines, COVID and the health of Americans.

Joining us now to unpack some of those is Dr. Richard Besser. He's former acting director of the CDC in the Obama administration, now president and CEO of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. And for the record, we should note the foundation is a funder of the "News Hour."

Dr. Besser, welcome back to the show. Thanks for joining us.

Dr. Richard Besser, Former Acting Director, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention: Great to be here. Thank you.

Amna Nawaz:

So Secretary Kennedy made a big claim in the hearing I want to ask you about. He said that America is the sickest country in the world. Take a listen to how he put it.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.:

If we don't end this chronic disease — we are the sickest country in the world. That's why we have to fire people at the CDC. They did not do their job. This was their job to keep us healthy.

Amna Nawaz:

Dr. Besser, the U.S. spends more than any other nation on health care. Is it accurate to say we are the sickest country in the world?

Dr. Richard Besser:

Well, I don't think I would say we're the sickest country in the world, but I would agree with the secretary that we're not getting the return on the investment. And a lot of that has to do with where we're spending our money.

We're spending our money on health care services, rather than on public health and other approaches to prevention.

Amna Nawaz:

He cites as part of the argument there what he says is a huge spike we have seen in the country in chronic disease. He actually made the claim that CDC data shows some 76 percent of Americans have a chronic disease. That number caught a lot of people's attention. Is that true?

Dr. Richard Besser:

Well, I would have to go back and look at that number and see what he's putting in there.

But we have real challenges in America related to chronic diseases. It's one of those areas where I think, if the secretary were someone who really believed in using science and evidence to address chronic diseases, we could make progress.

In the area of nutrition, that's an area where RWJF, our foundation, has done a lot of work. There's a lot that could be done to make sure that the children in our schools were eating healthy school lunches, that schools had kitchens so they could actually cook real food for kids. But that's not what I'm hearing the secretary talk about.

Amna Nawaz:

Could that number be as high as 76 percent of all Americans, though? I mean, what are we talking about when we're talking about chronic diseases?

Dr. Richard Besser:

Well, I don't know what he's talking about there.

You know, when the secretary was being confirmed, one of the things he said is that he's not a scientist, and you shouldn't look to him for scientific information. This is one of those situations where I would need to fact-check that statistic.

But I wouldn't argue that we have real issues in America with chronic disease, and it's something where, if you pull together the best and the brightest around science, we could make real progress.

Amna Nawaz:

There's another heated moment you heard Lisa report on there in the tape, when Democratic Senator Mark Warner asked Secretary Kennedy about how many people died from COVID, and Kennedy answered: "I don't think anybody knows that."

Do we know the answer to that, Dr. Besser?

Dr. Richard Besser:

We do. When it comes to public health and data, you use all kinds of different tools to try and estimate what those numbers are. And we know that in the United States, over a million lives were saved due to the COVID vaccines. And we know around the world, millions of lives were saved.

So for him to say we don't know, well, you may not know an exact number, but when you're talking about millions, that's pretty incredible. And it's one of the big accomplishments of the first Trump administration was how quickly we got so many safe and highly effective vaccines to the people here in the United States, as well as due to the research from the National Institutes of Health for people around the globe.

Amna Nawaz:

Just to underscore that point on the efficacy of the vaccines, because the secretary was asked repeatedly about whether or not the COVID vaccine saved lives, he wouldn't say definitively, and he said he wanted to see the data and take a look at the data.

What do we know about the efficacy of the COVID vaccine?

Dr. Richard Besser:

We know that the COVID vaccine is extremely safe and extremely effective. You saw differences in effectiveness based on which vaccines. The mRNA vaccines, the technology that the secretary is putting an end to, were extremely effective.

And one of the beautiful things about those vaccines is how easy it was to manufacture them at a very large number and how those could be adapted very quickly when there were new strains of COVID that were coming on the on the scene, so very safe, very effective. No vaccine is 100 percent protective, though.

And that's why I'm so deeply concerned about the climate the secretary is creating. We just saw in Florida the surgeon general say that vaccines for children going to school are optional. That creates a terrifying situation. And it is because of the climate that the secretary is creating in our nation.

Amna Nawaz:

Dr. Besser, say more about that climate you mentioned. Big picture here, we just saw probably the most contentious hearing for an administration member so far this term, even Republican senators expressing some concerns about what evidence, what science backed up some of Secretary Kennedy's decisions.

What does all of that say to you?

Dr. Richard Besser:

Well, one of the things that gave me some hope in that hearing was that we were seeing bipartisan condemnation of some of the things that Secretary Kennedy is doing.

Senator Cassidy, who chairs the Senate committee that oversees the department, really called out Secretary Kennedy around his unwillingness to celebrate the achievements of the first Trump administration in creating such effective COVID vaccines. He lifted up the experiences of people in his state who are having trouble getting vaccinated.

And he said, this is not acceptable. And we need to see more of that because it really falls on the Republicans to say that this is unacceptable. And the actions this secretary is taking are not going to respect state borders. They're not going to respect political party. They're going to hit everyone in our country in a very serious way.

Amna Nawaz:

That is the president of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, Dr. Richard Besser, joining us tonight.

Dr. Besser, thank you. It's always good to speak with you.

Dr. Richard Besser:

Thanks very much.