Former Israeli prime minister on the escalating violence in his country

Amna Nawaz:

There was more violence in Israel today. Police say a Palestinian gunman shot and wounded two Israelis in Jerusalem.

Meanwhile, Israeli forces conducted another raid in the occupied West Bank. Palestinian militants responded by opening fire. At least six Palestinians were wounded, according to local health officials.

All of this comes as the Israeli government's proposed judicial reforms have stalled.

Joining me now to discuss the situation on the ground and what happens next is Naftali Bennett. He was Israel's prime minister from June of 2021 to June of 2022.

Prime Minister Bennett, welcome, and thank you for being here.

Naftali Bennett, Former Israeli Prime Minister:

Great being here, Amna.

Amna Nawaz:

So, those judicial reforms brought Israelis into the streets en masse, brought the country to a standstill.

Prime Minister Netanyahu has hit pause. But he has not completely pulled the plan. Should he?

Naftali Bennett:

Well, in effect he has.

I can now openly declare that the democracy in Israel has prevailed. It's clear. It'll take a while to — until everyone understands it, but I think what Israel got was a great gift for its 75th birthday. Democracy will prevail.

You are right that the — explicitly, the prime minister has not yet said what I think needs to be said, which is, we will progress on the reforms only in agreement, and we won't unilaterally try and shove it down the other side.

Amna Nawaz:

This has led to some increased tensions between the U.S. and Israel. We should note, Prime Minister — or, rather, President Biden has said that Mr. Netanyahu cannot continue down this path.

If Netanyahu continues to push, do you worry about the relationship between the U.S. and Israel?

Naftali Bennett:

I don't think Netanyahu will continue to push unilaterally. I think, right now, there's meaningful discussions going on at the Israeli president's leadership between the coalition and opposition.

I think Netanyahu understands very well now that the only way forward is a big compromise.

Amna Nawaz:

I'd love to ask you about Americans' views on Israel, because there's been a dramatic shift that I'd love to put to you.

There was a recent Gallup poll that showed Democrats, specifically in the U.S., are now more sympathetic to Palestinians by a 15-point margin. And that is a — that's a real reversal in just a matter of years. Seven years ago, sympathy was 30 percent greater for Israelis than for Palestinians.

What do those numbers say to you?

Naftali Bennett:

Well, I think we need to do a better job of bringing the reality and the beautiful reality, but complex reality of Israel to American viewers.

Israel is not about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It's such a richer environment. We're a democracy, flawed. We're imperfect, but we try to do our very best to thrive and to do good for everyone in Israel, for the Jews, for the Arabs in Israel.

Amna Nawaz:

Critics will say, how is this a real democracy, though, when you have five million Palestinians who have no voting rights, no access to government?

I mean, in a true democracy, wouldn't everyone have equal rights?

Naftali Bennett:

Well, they do. The Palestinians do have access to democracy.

They belong to the P.A., which has its own elections. They elect their own officials. And, in Gaza, there's a full-fledged state, a Hamas state. We handed over the — all the land in Gaza to the Palestinians, pulled out all the Jews from there, all the army, and went back to the '67 lines, and handed over.

Amna Nawaz:

But under occupation, under…

Naftali Bennett:

No.

Amna Nawaz:

In the West Bank — in the West Bank, specifically, Palestinians do not have voting rights or access to government.

Naftali Bennett:

So, they do. They have voting rights for the Palestinian Authority and access to the government of the Palestinian Authority.

Amna Nawaz:

But they do live under a military occupation of Israeli forces.

Naftali Bennett:

Only from a security standpoint. We have to defend ourselves. But, barring that, they have full freedom.

The huge majority of Palestinians are governed by the Palestinian Authority, vote for the Palestinian Authority, pay them taxes, are subject to their rules of law. I do admit that the P.A. is doing a fairly lousy job in governing. And, for example, they keep on postponing their elections.

Amna Nawaz:

I will say, people and critics who watch the mistreatment and the unequal treatment of Palestinian and Israeli citizens there, some have written now that because Israel doesn't treat all of its citizens equally, that it does not have shared values with the U.S.

And they argue — some argue Washington should begin conditioning military and economic aid on specific measures to end military rule over Palestinians. What's your reaction to that?

Naftali Bennett:

I think that would be a profound mistake.

First of all, we do share common values. Israel is a full-fledged democracy. In Israel, we have about two million Arab citizens that they vote for the same Knesset that I vote for. Arabs enjoy full — the full rights that any Jew enjoys within Israel.

Amna Nawaz:

Again, I'm not asking about Arabs or Israeli citizens.

Naftali Bennett:

Right. And we're…

Amna Nawaz:

I'm asking about the five million Palestinians who are not Israeli citizens.

Naftali Bennett:

And they belong to the — all right, so part of them belong to Gaza, and they have their own government and their own failed state. And part of them belong to the P.A. And they have their own government and their own failed entity.

Here's the problem. We keep on trying again and again to provide them all the freedoms, all — everything they need. We cannot make them succeed more than they want to.

Amna Nawaz:

We are speaking at a time of accelerating tensions and increased violence in Israel as well.

And this — settlement expansions are something U.N. officials have pointed to repeatedly as fueling that violence, the eviction of Palestinian families, the demolitions of their homes. Would halting those settlement expansions help bring down the temperature?

Naftali Bennett:

Well, I want to be very clear. Israel does not evict anyone from his home unless they are illegally there. And then we evict Jews and Arabs alike across the board.

So we get criticism.

Amna Nawaz:

And legal by whose determination, though?

Naftali Bennett:

By the Supreme Court of Israel.

Amna Nawaz:

Because we have seen Palestinian families en masse evicted from properties they have occupied for generations.

Naftali Bennett:

Well, we are a country of rule of law. We have a Supreme Court, which is respected across the world.

And that Supreme Court tells us, you have to evict this because it's illegal or you don't need to evict it because it's legal, regardless of whether it's Jews or Arabs.

Amna Nawaz:

Saudi Arabia, with whom Netanyahu has said he'd like to reach a peace deal, has been issuing multiple statements condemning Israeli actions in recent months.

He's now calling it an occupation. Rather, Saudi is calling Israel an occupation government again. How can Israel improve relations with Saudi Arabia, with its Arab neighbors in general, if the settlements continue and if the violence escalates?

Naftali Bennett:

I think the Saudis look at the region, and they view Israel as a potential partner to fend off the real big threat of the region, which is Iran.

Amna Nawaz:

But they have just begun to normalize relations with Iran.

Naftali Bennett:

That's correct, because they sense there's a degree of vacuum in the region, and they're hedging.

But if they see that Israel continues the correct policy that I enacted of fighting Iran back on its territory, as opposed to waiting it — for it to hit us in our homes, whether in Israel or any Arab country, I think that will garner more respect, and we will be able to make progress on — with the Saudis.

Amna Nawaz:

Former Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett joining us tonight, thank you so much for being here.

Naftali Bennett:

Thank you, Amna.