How a group of Ohio voters are working to bridge the widening partisan divide

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• Amna Nawaz:

  Most Americans feel the nation is more divided today than in the past, according to a recent YouGov poll.

  To find out why, Judy Woodruff sat down with a group of Republican and Democratic voters in Northeast Ohio who are trying to bridge the partisan divide.

  It's her latest installment in the series America at a Crossroads.

• Judy Woodruff:

  On a beautiful spring Sunday, when many Clevelanders were cheering on runners at the city's annual marathon, we were inside the city's historic public library next door, talking to a half-dozen local residents about America's divisions.

  The group was brought together with the help of Braver Angels, one of hundreds of grassroots organizations that have sprung up in recent years to try to bridge the partisan divide.

  Thank you, each one of you, for joining us for this conversation. We so appreciate it.

  Joining me were Republican Nancy Miranda, who co-chairs the state's chapter of Braver Angels.

• Nancy Miranda, Republican Voter:

  What is going on in this country was so disconcerting to me that I was actually waking up at night thinking, oh, my gosh, what are we leaving our kids?

• Judy Woodruff:

  Democrat Dr. Bill Shaul, a retired family doctor and Braver Angels ambassador.

• Dr. Bill Shaul, Democratic Voter:

  I think we need to start to bridge personal bridges with each other by listening better, being more curious about what the stories are that are behind our positions.

• Judy Woodruff:

  Republican Khalid Namar, who works for Americans For Prosperity, a libertarian conservative group, and who hosts a radio talk show.

• Khalid Namar, Republican Voter:

  We have always had problems, but the approach to those problems, there's fundamental differences in how people see the solutions to those problems.

• Judy Woodruff:

  Democrat Leah Nichols, mother of a 4-year-old and frequent volunteer in local and state politics.

• Leah Nichols, Democratic Voter:

  There is so much division in between the Democrats and the Republicans. And I think that it's really important to try to find a way forward together.

• Judy Woodruff:

  Republican Mark Nieberding, who works in I.T.

• Mark Nieberding, Republican Voter:

  If you tell me who you voted for, I can very easily identify you, and I can discount you as a person right away, which is antithetical to what this country should be.

• Judy Woodruff:

  And Democrat John Shi. He moved here from California eight years ago for college and stayed.

• John Shi, Democratic Voter:

  Our polarization is a systemic problem at this point. So, it is not caused by one individual and it will not be changed by one individual. So, I think it requires a collective to fix that.

• Judy Woodruff:

  As part of my reporting project trying to understand how the country seems to be so divided right now, I wanted to talk to a mix of voters here in Ohio to understand how you see this divide and if you think there are ways to bridge it.

  And we have reason to think this is something you think is possible.

  So, Nancy, you turned to Braver Angels because you just sensed things were getting more and more divided. How did you see that in your own life?

• Nancy Miranda:

  I think the media has such a big part in dividing us, whether it is racially or politically or gender or sex.

• Dr. Bill Shaul:

  The media tends to foster the extremes by fueling a lot of the rhetoric that is at the extremes of both red and blue.

  And the rhetoric and the disrespect and the lack of civility that we sometimes see portrayed in the media, I think, has made this a lot worse.

• Khalid Namar:

  I do see the media as somewhat of an arsonist in many respects. However, unfortunately, they're a mirror also as to some of the climate that's out there.

  There's this lack of ability to hear discourse from the other side.

• Leah Nichols:

  Now we have a 24-hour news cycle. And the news I see is probably different than the news Nancy sees, which is probably different than the news that you see, because we're all — have our own tailored algorithms when it comes down to social media.

  I think that the news is just so different than it used to be. It is hard for us to even be on the same page sometimes.

• Judy Woodruff:

  Mark, thoughts?

• Mark Nieberding:

  Are we really divided? I mean, I'm just not sure how much is being fed to us through the media. It's furthering confirmation bias, I think, is the problem.

• Judy Woodruff:

  Picking up on that, Nancy, I mean, it's also the case that, when you look at the Congress of the United States or at state legislatures, they're pretty divided right now.

  How do you think — are they reflecting the public? Are they influencing the public? How do you see that?

• Nancy Miranda:

  They seem to be speaking to the fringes. I don't know if they're really listening to any of us sitting here. I don't know if anybody, any politician right now even looks at an issue objectively and says, hey, this is good for the American public.

  No, it's red, I'm against it, or it's blue, I'm against it. It is very infuriating.

• John Shi:

  That points to a bigger problem, I think, that exists in American politics today. And that is our leaders not representing the constituency, at least in the majority sense.

  It feels like, whether it's polarized voices shouting the loudest or special interests with funded campaigns to get their messages and opinions heard.

• Judy Woodruff:

  So, Mark, you just heard what John and Nancy were saying about our political leaders. How do you see that dynamic? Are they playing a role in this division?

• Mark Nieberding:

  I think it's probably a lack of humility is probably at the core.

• Judy Woodruff:

  You mean on the part of our leaders?

• Mark Nieberding:

  Yes. Yes. I mean, we're here doing it. If we're to be — I have heard it said that the leaders we get are a reflection of the people.

  So, maybe, here, we are starting to turn the tide and start to get some of the leaders who will think and respond to the people, as we are responding to each other.

• Judy Woodruff:

  So, my question for each one of you is, how do you see the people you disagree with politically?

• Leah Nichols:

  I think it's really easy to look at the other side and be able to say, oh, maybe they just don't have the knowledge that I have or they don't know the things that I know.

  But, in reality, we all have our own lived experiences that have brought us to where we are. And if we could listen to each other, maybe we'd actually be able to understand a little better.

• Khalid Namar:

  I'm going to probably sound a little different here. I'll say it's a mix of things. Some of them are bad. Some of them are decent people in the middle. Some of them are just misguided.

  We're being forced to try to accept a one-size-fits-all for the entire country. And I think that's the problem.

• Judy Woodruff:

  You just heard Khalid say that some of them are good people, but some of them aren't. How do you see that?

• Dr. Bill Shaul:

  If we understood how people shape their opinion, if we understood what their deeper values were that led to those positions, I think that requires a certain degree of curiosity, a certain degree of humility.

  And I think it will offset or mitigate some of the extremes that lead us to say those are bad people, or I could never agree with anything that person says.

• Judy Woodruff:

  Khalid, do you think that could work? Do you think, if you understood where they were coming from, you could get along with them?

• Khalid Namar:

  I know — I kind of where they are coming from. But I think a lot of people have a view of this country that's based on everything that's negative and nothing more.

  It's ill-founded, it's immoral, it's racist, it's sexist, it's bigoted. And a lot of people think this country needs to be completely revamped and upended. Some of us don't. Some of us know what needs to be fixed. But how do we fix it, and do we just totally dismantle all of our foundations?

  So I think there are some real issues here. How we approach those issues and fixing the country is the fundamental problem.

• Leah Nichols:

  As somebody who does see some of these systems as wanting to be dismantled, not entirely all of them, but some of them, to an extent, I do feel like I see America as something that can be greater than it is right now, something that we can work forward to, to make better together, rather than just hating America.

• Judy Woodruff:

  One thing I wanted to ask you all for sure is whether this division has affected you in your personal lives, in your families. How have you seen that?

  John, what about you?

• John Shi:

  Yes, it definitely has affected my personal life.

  When the COVID vaccine started rolling out in early 2021, I was speaking to my father, who is, I would say, quite conservative, and I'm quite liberal, so very different political views. And he is in a high-risk group, so I thought he could — should take the vaccine, and adamantly refused that, and to this day has not taken the vaccine.

  And so having the conversation with him about the COVID-19 vaccine was difficult. But around the same time, I heard about Braver Angels and attended one of the workshops, where they taught me some lessons on how to understand the other side and have a civil, respectful conversation.

  And that has led me to talk with him more about the vaccine and other things and has significantly improved our relationship.

• Nancy Miranda:

  I almost lost a friend over it. We would get into discussions, and not very civil discussions. I'll put it that way.

  And then we just decided, you know, is our friendship worth it? And we just put certain things off-limits. We didn't talk about them at all. It wasn't risking losing a friend over politics. So, we stopped talking about it.

• Judy Woodruff:

  What about the rest of you?

• Mark Nieberding:

  I'm able to field someone else's opinion without necessarily being — feeling personally attacked.

  I think people have gotten to the point where they think that their opinions is who they are. They're not. It's a piece. It's not who you are.

• Leah Nichols:

  Unfortunately, I feel like it's affected so much of my relationships in my life. My family leans more to the right. Even growing up, I am bisexual, and I would not express that until after I moved out away from my family, where I felt it was more safe to do so.

  I feel like I have a decent relationship with my family. Luckily, we are all very question-oriented. We ask questions. Why do you think that? Why do you feel that way? What made you come to that decision?

  And there are times where we change our minds, which is, I think, what this country needs to have more of.

• Judy Woodruff:

  Yes, well, let's use that as a way to ask — to raise this question.

  What do you think it's going to take to make things better, to bring us to a place where we are able to talk about our differences?

• Nancy Miranda:

  Start individually. Go talk to somebody who thinks differently than you. If you're focused on FOX all the time, and you can't break away, or MSNBC, turn out the other station once in a while.

  Research what you're listening in the media. Find out what it's about. Don't take what anybody says verbatim.

• Leah Nichols:

  I do think it's really important that, kind of as they were saying, we put community in front of politics and that we put our community first.

  I also, in my small town, have helped start a community garden. I think I have had the most amazing political discourse gardening with people from all different sides. And we don't come in and say, I'm Republican or I'm Democrat. We just come in as people who want a garden and better our community.

• Judy Woodruff:

  Are you hopeful that we can get to a better place?

• John Shi:

  I really think the answer to our polarization politically in this country is in our communities, and it is in the relationships that we have with one another, especially across lines of difference.

  I think, with enough time, we can start to reverse this trend of polarization that we have seen over the last decade or two and work towards a healthier democracy.

• Judy Woodruff:

  Are you hopeful?

• Khalid Namar:

  I would like to be, but there are things that are disturbing to me.

  The underpinnings of our culture and society are come — they're unraveling. So I would like to be hopeful, but I want those things addressed, as opposed to us having a civil debate, which is fine, but how do we live?

• Nancy Miranda:

  I am hopeful. I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing if I wasn't hopeful. It — sometimes, it feels like a horribly uphill battle, but it's better than not doing it.

• Dr. Bill Shaul:

  I feel more encouraged and hopeful by virtue of being involved in something like Braver Angels.

  For some reason, the energy that goes into that translates for me into a hopeful feeling about the future.

• Judy Woodruff:

  This has been such a wonderful conversation. Thank you, each one of you, for sitting down and talking with us today.

  Thank you very much.

• Leah Nichols:

  Thank you.

  (CROSSTALK)

• Mark Nieberding:

  Thank you for having us.