'No excuse' for immigration agents' excess use of force, says former DHS head Napolitano

Amna Nawaz:

In a forum on federal agents' use of force in the president's immigration crackdown, Democratic lawmakers heard from Americans directly impacted.

That included the brothers of Renee Good, shot and killed in Minneapolis last month, Marimar Martinez, shot five times by Border Patrol agents in Chicago last fall, and Aliya Rahman, dragged from her car by agents in January in Minneapolis. ICE agents said they'd instructed Rahman to move her car.

The administration has claimed that Good and Martinez threatened agents with their cars., Charges against Martinez were later dropped.

Here's just some of what they shared.

Luke Ganger, Brother of Renee Good: The completely surreal scenes taking place on the streets of Minneapolis are beyond explanation. This is not just a bad day or a rough week or isolated incidents. These encounters with federal agents are changing the community and changing many lives, including ours forever.

Marimar Martinez, Shot By Border Patrol Agents:

I struggle with the memories of the day, the initial swerving into me by Agent Exum, the shots ringing out and the burning sensation as the bullets ripped through my skin and body.

I had seven bullet holes in my body. I remember the agents rushing the nurses to finish up so they could take me with them. I still felt dizzy. I was not able to fully process what had happened to me.

Aliya Rahman, Dragged From Vehicle By ICE:

Then the glass of the passenger side window flew across my face. I yelled "I'm disabled" at the hands grabbing at me. And an agent said: "Too late."

Amna Nawaz:

No DHS officials appeared at today's forum.

For more on all this, I'm joined now by Janet Napolitano. She served as homeland security secretary under President Obama. She's also served as Arizona's governor and as attorney general.

Secretary Napolitano, welcome back to the "News Hour." Thank you for joining us.

Janet Napolitano, Former U.S. Secretary of Homeland Security: Thank you.

Amna Nawaz:

Can I just ask you to respond to some of the sound we heard there from that forum today of people testifying about the use of force they or their families experienced, and also the videos I'm sure you have seen of federal agents breaking windows, pointing guns at civilians, dragging people from cars?

You ran DHS. Is this what an immigration enforcement operation is supposed to look like?

Janet Napolitano:

No, it is not.

And what we have seen in Minneapolis and in other cities where the so-called surges occurred is increasingly aggressive behavior by federal agents. Look, immigration is a tough topic. I know. I have dealt with it for decades, but it is no excuse for the excessive use of force against the citizenry of the United States.

Amna Nawaz:

You will recall under President Obama when he was dubbed by immigration rights advocates as the deporter in chief, right?

Janet Napolitano:

Yes.

Amna Nawaz:

He logged more than three million deportations across both his administrations under ICE.

So what was being done differently then compared to what we're seeing now?

Janet Napolitano:

Well, first of all, we prioritized. We gave clear direction to ICE to focus on those in the country illegally who had also committed other serious crimes.

And that's primarily what we did. We also focused on border and border security and deportations right at the border before individuals had the opportunity to get into the United States and settle here. And so I was secretary for about five years, and in that period we deported about 3.2 million or so individuals.

That's what gave President Obama, I think much to his chagrin, the nickname deporter in chief. But it was a clear prioritized operation that was designed to protect the nation from undocumented illegal immigration, but also to rid the nation of illegal immigrants who had otherwise committed other crimes.

Amna Nawaz:

As you have seen, we have seen a little bit of a change from the president's administration in Minneapolis, at least, replacing Greg Bovino, who was running the operation there, with Tom Homan, his so-called border czar.

I understand you know Mr. Homan from your time at DHS. He was there when you were secretary. What can you tell us about him and how, if at all, you think things will change on the ground in Minneapolis?

Janet Napolitano:

Well, I think the switch was long overdue, because Bovino was such a showboat, rather than being really an effective law enforcement leader and manager.

Tom Homan is a career public servant. He's very conservative on immigration, don't get me wrong, but when I was secretary, he was head of ERO at ICE. And that's when we implemented the guidelines that we had begun under President Obama, which was in the interior of the country to focus on those who were in the country in undocumented status who had committed other serious crimes.

Amna Nawaz:

When you look at what's happening on the ground, though, and contrast that with the message we're hearing from some of the senior-most officials in the White House, the vice president himself, Stephen Miller, who we know formulates a lot of this policy, they have been messaging to ICE agents that they have absolute immunity in how they act.

How do you think federal agents are incentivized to be less aggressive or pull back when that's the message they're getting from the White House?

Janet Napolitano:

Well, it's -- not only is it wrong on the law. They don't have absolute immunity and have never had absolute immunity.

But just the words that are being used, the rhetoric that comes from the White House, from the secretary's office, et cetera, in essence, gives permission to field agents to do overly aggressive behaviors in order to accomplish what they're supposed to do. And that has resulted in some of the real unfortunate abuses that we have seen in Minneapolis and in other cities across the United States.

Amna Nawaz:

So how much of a difference would it make when you look at what Democrats are asking for, in example, in these shutdowns -- well, the shutdown is now over, but in the negotiations over a change in ICE tactics?

They want things like ending roving patrols, removing agents' masks, requiring judicial, not administrative warrants. Would those things make a real difference?

Janet Napolitano:

Well, roving patrols are a function of the quota that has been issued by the White House for 3,000 arrests per day, which is a great increase from any prior administration. And they simply can't find enough of those people.

So they're just running around looking. And that has caused all kinds of abuse and the kinds of things that we have seen in Minneapolis and elsewhere. Other things, requiring a judicial warrant, which seems to be a sticking point, well, judicial warrants are required when a federal agent wants to enter a home. It's a function of the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution. There's no difference.

Under the current law, immigration agents do not need a judicial warrant when they're effecting an arrest in a public place if they have probable cause to believe an individual is otherwise removable. So if that's where they end up, that's what the law currently requires.

And what we have seen -- where we have seen the law broken is an agent going into houses, not with judicial warrants, which is a fundamental of the Fourth Amendment, but with simple administrative warrants.

Amna Nawaz:

You have mentioned in previous interviews that you don't know the current DHS secretary, Kristi Noem. You haven't spoken to her. You did say in one interview she's clearly out of her depth.

But if you could advise her at this moment about what you think should happen next to avoid more loss of life or further aggressive use of force, what would you say?

Janet Napolitano:

Well, first, I would say that she needs to watch what she says and how she says it. She is the leader of the Department of Homeland Security. She shouldn't rush to judgment and immediately say a victim is a domestic terrorist or an insurrectionist or an anarchist, when we can see the videos for ourselves, the American people can see the videos for themselves.

But, in essence, it's giving permission to those agents who are out there who are acting overly aggressively, not using law enforcement best practices to continue that kind of behavior. The second thing I would recommend to her is to make sure that investigations of these excessive force cases are done independently, openly, transparently, and in cooperation and coordination with state attorneys general and local police.

That is the only way that the department will reestablish the credibility of these investigations, since there was such a rush to judgment at the outset.

Amna Nawaz:

That is the former Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano joining us tonight.

Secretary Napolitano, thank you for your time. We appreciate it.

Janet Napolitano:

Thank you.