Republican Rep. Ralph Norman discusses negotiations to avoid a government shutdown

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• Amna Nawaz:

  In a sign of much larger problems ahead, House Republicans today withdrew their potential plan to fund the government.

  The conference is divided and struggling to agree, with only 11 full days remaining until most agencies would be forced to shut down.

  Congressional correspondent Lisa Desjardins has been at the Capitol today and joins me here in the studio.

  Lisa, great to see you.

• Lisa Desjardins:

  Great to see you.

• Amna Nawaz:

  So, the clock is ticking. You have been talking to all your sources. Just bring us up to speed. Where do things stand right now?

• Lisa Desjardins:

  OK.

  We have all been through this game before, right? And I have to say, I'm usually an optimist. I'm also usually very leery of this situation, because, by the end, we know these lawmakers have ways of figuring this out by the deadline.

  But, Amna, I have to say, given the dynamics that we know, given the conversations I'm having on Capitol Hill, we are hurtling toward a government shutdown. Something dramatic has to change to avoid one.

  Now, this is based on initially some very substantive issues, primarily that House Republicans are concerned about spending and the growth of the national debt ahead. They want to curb spending. That's the actual easy part. It's hard, but it's the easy part here, because Republicans then can't agree amongst themselves over how to do that.

  Let's just look at a list of the things that House Republicans can't agree on amongst themselves that I heard about today, one, the size and shape of those spending cuts, two, Ukraine funding. That's something we talk a lot about on this show, big divide over whether Ukraine should get more money, immigration, border policy, also what to do there, and the shutdown itself.

  There are some Republicans, Amna, who believe a shutdown could be a good thing. Believe it or not, they think that it would force the issue about spending and the national debt. They are the minority. But there are others who say, no, that's ridiculous. We shouldn't be going toward a shutdown.

  But the idea that there are Republicans like that is adding to this dynamic and really increasing the chances of us having a shutdown. One — on the other side of that are moderate Republicans, who say, listen, folks, this is out of control.

  Here's Mike Lawler of New York:

• Rep. Mike Lawler (R-NY):

  We're in a divided government, right? You have a Democrat-controlled Senate. You have a Democrat in the White House. Of course, you're going to need Democrats. And anybody who thinks otherwise is lying to the American people.

• Lisa Desjardins:

  Tonight, House Republicans also could not even pass a rule on the House floor, which is a major defeat for them. Kevin McCarthy is meeting in small groups with everyone to try and work this out.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Lisa, given all the struggle seems to be within one conference here, then what are the off-ramps? I mean, how do they avoid a shutdown at this stage?

• Lisa Desjardins:

  It's the same off-ramp as we always see. There needs to be a short-term funding bill.

  And Republicans are trying to come up with one. But as long as they can't agree on one, then the other way to go is to peel off a few Democrats, maybe bring together moderate Democrats and Republicans, to come up with an easy, simple, classic just fund government for a few weeks.

  Problem there, Democrats are very unhappy with Republicans over the impeachment inquiry they launched last week, don't trust them. Republicans, also, now many of them think being bipartisan means you're not conservative enough. So, these dangerous rifts in our kind of culture and political sensibilities here in this country are now hitting full force.

  If you're a government worker, if you're planning a trip to a national park, I'm sorry to tell you that you really should be watching this, because we could have a shutdown soon.

• Amna Nawaz:

  That's Lisa Desjardins covering this incredibly important story, talking to everyone at the heart of it.

  Lisa, thanks for your reporting.

• Lisa Desjardins:

  You're welcome.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Let's hear now from one of the Republicans who say they will not support the current deal to fund the government.

  Joining me from the Capitol is South Carolina Congressman Ralph Norman, a member of the House Freedom Caucus.

  Congressman, welcome, and thanks for joining us.

• Rep. Ralph Norman (R-SC):

  Glad to be with you.

• Amna Nawaz:

  So, how likely is a shutdown right now, in your view?

• Rep. Ralph Norman:

  It's 100 percent.

• Amna Nawaz:

  And are you comfortable with that?

• Rep. Ralph Norman:

  Well, I mean, a shutdown is not the best thing in the world, but continued bank — continued path toward bankruptcy is not an option either for me.

  It was put in perspective at a caucus meeting today when one of our members said he had calculated that the debt every second is $20,000, every second. And I'm just not — it's not business as usual. Economic security is national security.

  In a perfect world, we would agree on everything and have bipartisan support. But that's just not the case. So it's up to us to — we in the majority by slim margin to figure it out and come up with a budget that gets us on a downward trajectory. That's what we agreed to in January, a 10-year budget, which we will have, and other things.

  But this isn't an easy process. When it comes to money, there's an advocate for every dollar. And so it's not easy, but it's part of the reason that we're elected to this office to make the decisions.

• Amna Nawaz:

  What about a stopgap funding measure, a short-term funding bill?

  I know some of your Freedom Caucus colleagues were part of a group that worked out a potential deal. Yet you don't support that, I understand. But what would you support?

• Rep. Ralph Norman:

  What I would support would be leadership agreeing to a top-line number. We had put on paper in July 10 a 1.471.

  I met with the speaker today. And he is — to his credit, has been open to talks. But we need a top-line number that the 12 appropriation bills won't go over. One of the agreements in January was to operate on regular order, which would mean, for the 12 approps bills to be hammered out in June and July.

  That just didn't happen, for whatever reason. We are where we are.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Can I ask you about that top-line number, though? Do I understand correctly when you say you won't agree to anything unless it has that top-line number of 1.471? Is that right?

• Rep. Ralph Norman:

  I need a — that's the number we have given it. We need a number.

  We're not going into this thing blindly, giving a blank check. We were burned — and I told the speaker this — on the debt ceiling to give this sitting president a carte blanche, a free blank check on the spending limit to January of 2025. You just don't do that.

  So that's why we need the safeguards of a number that he's going to go to work and get, as he did with the speaker vote. He didn't have 218. We have almost put the cart before the horse, in that, instead of working on each of the approps bills, to cut the things that we know aren't good for the country or, in the Republicans' opinion, and get a consensus on it.

  But you got to work at it. You got to go to line item by line item. I'm ready to do that.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Congressman, it's really striking to hear you say it's a 100 percent chance of going to a government shutdown now, because we are just now in this country digging out of the hole from COVID and the hit that the economy took.

  But inflation is coming down. Unemployment is at historic lows. Why risk damaging the economy further with a shutdown?

• Rep. Ralph Norman:

  Why risk borrowing more money at $20,000 a second that's going to add to the $32 trillion debt?

• Amna Nawaz:

  But you do agree that a shutdown would also harm the economy, correct?

• Rep. Ralph Norman:

  Well, it harmed the economy when the government shut the businesses down for a virus. It harmed the economy when children couldn't go to school and they took them out of school for the length of time they did.

  And the government's going to have to go on a diet. And a shutdown, if it happens — and I think it will — will encourage everybody to come up, particularly Republicans — I don't think we will have much bipartisan support. The answer that Democrats continue to give, which is bizarre, is more taxes and more spending.

  I'm just not going along — I'm not using my vote to go along with that. So, a shutdown is going to be the result of, I guess, waiting until the last minute.

• Amna Nawaz:

  As you saw, Mr. McCarthy dared the Freedom Caucus to basically try and remove him from the speakership, if you wanted to, and you didn't.

  So is that threat to remove him sort of an empty one at this point?

• Rep. Ralph Norman:

  Well, you have had one member mention that. It's not an empty point. I mean, it's always out there. Who's to say that, if we don't move anything else, what's going to happen?

  The motion to vacate, the reason we fought to keep that in, again, in January is because anybody, if you're not doing the job in the private sector, you don't keep your job. Kevin's done some good things. But now spending, spending is the cancer in this country. And he's going to have to focus on it.

  And, hopefully, he will. And I'm not going to — I'm not going to go there with, would I vote for a motion to vacate, would I not? I'm just saying, let's get the job on the economy going. Let's get the spending under control, and then let's move this country forward.

• Amna Nawaz:

  As you know, the Republicans' plan does not include additional funding for Ukraine and its war in defending itself from Russia.

  You saw Mr. Biden, President Biden, at the UNGA today say the U.S. is going to continue to stand with Ukraine. Are you worried that calling that funding into question emboldens Russia and its war in Ukraine?

• Rep. Ralph Norman:

  What I worry about is this president not having any offsets.

  If he were sincerely legitimate in saying he wanted to fund Ukraine, cut something on some of these programs that the — the Green New Deal, as an example, the funding for borders in foreign countries, the $6 trillion (sic) that he gave Iran. Where is that coming from? What's Iran — why does Iran, who would blow — would prefer to blow this country off the map, why does it deserve $6 trillion (sic) that this sitting president gave?

  So…

• Amna Nawaz:

  Congressman, I think — do you mean the money that just came as a result of the hostage negotiations?

• Rep. Ralph Norman:

  Yes.

• Amna Nawaz:

  So, that was $6 billion. And those were not U.S. taxpayer funds. Those were frozen Iranian funds that South Korea was holding in a restricted account.

• Rep. Ralph Norman:

  I understand all that. It's still money, though, that he agreed to give away, and as he's doing in every agency that he's under control.

  Look at the executive orders that he's had that have had dollar bills attached to him. The point is this. If he was serious about it, let's examine the budget. We're $2 trillion — this year, we're going to be $2 trillion — run a $2 trillion deficit.

  That's not fair to the American people. I will argue that all day long. If you're comfortable with that, then to add that to the existing debt, I just don't subscribe to that theory.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Before I let you go, I have to ask.

  Last week, you said you're considering running against Senator Lindsey Graham in 2026, that you haven't made a decision yet. But I wonder, why is it you believe he could be vulnerable in 2026?

• Rep. Ralph Norman:

  Well, Lindsey has all — and I like Lindsey, but you get two different lenses.

  In a six year-term, the first four years, he votes with Mitt Romney. He votes to spend this country into oblivion. The last two years, he's very conservative. And Lindsey has got a big war chest. And an hour in politics is a long time. 2026 is a long way off.

  But, yes, I was asked by the press, would I consider it? And, yes, I will, because I'm frustrated with his votes and just nonparticipation in getting this country back on a firm financial footing.

• Amna Nawaz:

  That is South Carolina Congressman Ralph Norman, a member of the House Freedom Caucus, joining us tonight.

  Congressman, thank you. It's good to see you.

• Rep. Ralph Norman:

  My pleasure.