Tim Alberta discusses his new book exploring American evangelicals and political extremism

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• Geoff Bennett:

  White evangelical voters helped Donald Trump win the White House in 2016 and largely stuck by him again in 2020.

  In his new book, Tim Alberta sought to find out why, when that support is largely inconsistent with basic Christian values. He approaches the topic as a journalist and as a practicing Christian. Tim's father was a pastor, and he says the evangelical church was his home, which offered an up-close look at the ways in which GOP politics are transforming and fracturing the evangelical church.

  The book is titled "The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory: American Evangelicals in an Age of Extremism."

  I asked Tim about a searing moment he describes, when, at his own father's funeral, a church elder admonished him for not fully embracing Donald Trump as God's chosen leader.

  Tim Alberta, Author, "The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory: American Evangelicals in an Age of Extremism": Well, I think just once I was able to process it, because it was a surreal moment, having just buried my father — you're in this state of mourning and of shock, and not sure, is this even real?

  And then you're reading this. And I think what it revealed more than anything, Geoff, was just this epiphany of, boy, if I, the son of the senior pastor who was here for 25 years leading this congregation, if I, who grew up here — these people have known me since I was 5 years old — if I could be treated this way, if I could be regarded as a member of the deep state, as an enemy of the church, as an apostate, if I could be treated that way, then how are we treating those outside the church?

  How are we engaging with the culture, whom we are called as Christians to evangelize?

• Geoff Bennett:

  Well, what is it about Donald Trump that has completely transformed and reconditioned the white evangelical expectation of what a political leader should be?

  I will tell you, in my own reporting, I have talked to evangelical Trump supporters who have compared him to consequential biblical figures like David, Cyrus, Solomon to make the point that he is someone, in their view, who can effect God's will without having to manifest any Christian values whatsoever.

• Tim Alberta:

  Yes, yes. And I have heard the same.

  And it's interesting. Obviously, when Donald Trump first came along in 2015 launching his campaign for president, he was mocked widely by evangelicals when he made his famous 2 Corinthians gaffe when he was speaking at Liberty University at the beginning of 2016. It was pounced on by a lot of leading evangelicals who are now some of his staunchest allies.

  And you ask yourself, well, how did he go from being a figure of suspicion and an outsider, and somebody who was almost a punchline to being a champion for these people?

  And I think much of the answer to that, Geoff, is rooted in what you are describing. You said white evangelical. And I think it's important to sort of hone in on this idea that, for the white Christian in America, they are now losing status in ways that they have never seen before, that, if you look, just statistically and demographically, 50 years ago, during the heyday of the Moral Majority, this was fundamentally a different country then than it is today.

  We are looking at decades-long downward trajectories in terms of the white percentage of the country, the percentage of the country that identifies as Christian, that identifies as churchgoing. And there is a sense of impending doom for a lot of these people, that the government is coming for them, that Christianity is in the crosshairs, and that we need to fight back.

  And, in some sense, it takes someone like Donald Trump, who's not a Christian. And because he's not a Christian, he's not beholden to Christian values, and, therefore, it makes him almost this mercenary who's willing to fight on behalf of this beleaguered population who feels under siege, and they have turned to someone like Donald Trump to do the dirty work for them.

• Geoff Bennett:

  Is that where Christian nationalism comes in, this belief that America is somehow in a unique covenant with God?

  What do Christian nationalists want that is different from the George W. Bush era Christian engagement with politics?

• Tim Alberta:

  Yes, it's a great question.

  I think, in many ways, Christian nationalism is revolving around this idea that the Christian nation that we inherited from the founders, that it was an explicitly Christian nation, not just a nation informed by Judeo-Christian principles and values, but explicitly formed to be a Christian nation, that that has to be recovered, that it has to be restored.

  And we are talking in some sense here about the T-word, theocracy. I mean, there are people in this movement, and, I would add, people who hold real power and influence in the Republican Party, people who are close to former President Donald Trump, who would certainly be advising him in a second term, who have no qualms talking about the idea of essentially demolishing the wall between church and state and attempting to, if not introduce Christianity as state religion in a concrete, official, formal way, at the very least to promote Christianity as state religion in ways.

  You just heard Donald Trump a couple of weeks ago on the campaign trail say, he's thinking about not letting any more non-Christian migrants into the country, no Jews, no Muslims, no Hindus, no atheists. If you're going to come to the U.S. now, you need to be a Christian.

  And that is, I think very explicitly, some of the ways in which these folks are thinking about how they recover the America that they once knew.

• Geoff Bennett:

  So, when Donald Trump says he wouldn't be a dictator if reelected, except for day one, what he said earlier this week in that televised town hall with Sean Hannity, what do his evangelical supporters hear?

• Tim Alberta:

  It's another great question, I mean, and you're right, because there's a dog whistle there.

  I think what Trump is speaking to here is a persecution complex more than anything else, when he talks about how the Christian church is under siege and so is he, when he talks to these evangelical supporters of his and says, really, they, the deep state, the liberals, the secularists, they're coming after you, but first they have to get through me, and that's why I'm being charged with all these indictments. That's why they're trying to take me down, is so that they can get to you.

  So when he pitches himself as a strongman, as a would-be authoritarian, I think in many ways what these people hear is, well, desperate times call for desperate measures, right?

  In other words — and there's some polling to back this up. There's some pretty good social science just the last couple of years around this idea that, for many white conservative evangelicals who are supportive of Trump, they would gladly embrace a sort of lurch toward authoritarianism if it meant preserving what they see as a Christian America, rather than lose in a liberal democratic fashion.

  For a lot of his supporters in that base, they're hearing it and saying, good, it's about time.

• Geoff Bennett:

  What does this all mean for the church?

• Tim Alberta:

  The secular public used to have a very positive view of the church in America.

  And now they have a very negative view, and that creates a barrier to entry into the church for those of us who are trying to reach out to bring people in and try to tell them about the love of God, and it's become very difficult to do so.

• Geoff Bennett:

  The book is "The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory: American Evangelicals in an Age of Extremism." Its author is Tim Alberta.

  Tim, thanks again for coming in, and congratulations on this extraordinary book.

• Tim Alberta:

  Thank you so much for having me.