Trump’s cuts are designed to ‘undermine public education,’ former secretary says

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• Amna Nawaz:

  President Trump has previously said he wants to eliminate the Department of Education completely. Just yesterday, his administration slash nearly 50 percent of its work force.

  William Brangham joins us now with more — William.

• William Brangham:

  Amna, 1,300 workers were laid off on Tuesday, on top of another 572 who took separation packages earlier.

  It is an enormous reduction for the agency that's currently responsible for managing $1.5 trillion in college loans, issuing guidance on civil rights laws, and providing funding for low-income schools.

  So, for more on how this will impact teachers and students, we are joined by John King. He's the chancellor for the State University of New York and was education secretary under President Obama.

  Chancellor King, thank you very much for being here.

  The Trump administration argues that the current academic progress of American students, which is alarming and well-documented, is proof that the federal Department of Education has failed in its mission, and thus it can be dismantled. And I just wonder, what what's your response to that?

  John King, Chancellor, The State University of New York: Unfortunately, they have got it exactly backwards.

  The Education Department has played a key role in the progress we have made over the last 40 years in terms of student performance. It's when the federal government is leaning in, providing clear accountability, mobilizing the country to improve outcomes, particularly for low-income students, students with disabilities, other vulnerable student populations, that we have seen the most progress.

  Where we stalled was when the first Trump administration took office, and then certainly COVID set the whole country back.

• William Brangham:

  So let's say that the Trump administration continues this progress. They have already halved the size of the work force.

  If they continue to go forward, as the president has said he wants to do, and eliminate it totally, what specific programs are you most concerned about going away?

• John King:

  I'm very concerned about Title I, which is the program that directs resources to schools serving low-income students.

  The Individuals with Disabilities Education Act implementation, this is funding that goes to schools to support students with disabilities and the services they desperately need. The Pell Grant program and the federal student loan program, which are key to helping students get to and through college, in the absence of these programs, students and families will be hurt and the country's economic future will be damaged.

• William Brangham:

  My colleague spoke earlier today with Jonathan Butcher. He's an education policy analyst at The Heritage Foundation. He was part of writing Project 2025, which very specifically called for the elimination of the department. And he argued that many of the most important functions of the department can be shopped out to other departments.

  Let's listen to what he had to say.

• Jonathan Butcher, The Heritage Foundation:

  Collecting data on student achievement, I think that's an appropriate function of this agency, but that can be handled — it's an appropriate function of the federal government, but it can be handled by different departments.

  So, for example, programs for children with special needs can move to Health and Human Services. The collection of data and measuring student progress, that can be handled by census, which already collects data for federal offices. The student loan program, which, of course, is a huge part of what the department does now, can be moved to Treasury.

  So the department itself as a Cabinet-level agency should be taken apart.

• William Brangham:

  Chancellor, what is your response to that? Can the principal functions of the department be shopped out elsewhere?

• John King:

  Look, I think that analysis is disingenuous.

  If the real intention was just efficiency, then you wouldn't see these dramatic layoffs of hundreds upon hundreds of people who have expertise and have been performing vital functions. You have layoffs today of folks who have been working on special education, folks who've been working on civil rights enforcement.

  And those jobs aren't being created somewhere else. They're just sending those people home and losing their experience for the country. So I think that's actually a false narrative that's being created. The real agenda here is to undermine public education. And that's tragic.

• William Brangham:

  Again, if this progress, if you can call it that, continues, how confident are you that the states, which supply 90 percent, I believe it is, of funding for schools all across the country, if they are more in the driver's seat, do you think that states and localities can pick up the slack if the federal responsibility disappears?

• John King:

  You know, the reality is, most decision-making in K-12 education already happens at the state and local level.

  But states and districts aren't going to be able to make up for the billions of dollars of federal funding that comes to them specifically to help vulnerable students, and they aren't going to make up for the accountability role that the department plays, that civil rights role.

  Remember, the department's history is as an agency that was created because states and districts were failing to protect the civil rights of students. That's why we needed the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965. That's why we needed the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act to ensure that students would be protected and that states and districts would do the right thing with federal oversight.

• William Brangham:

  All right, that is Chancellor John King of the State University System of New York and former education secretary.

  Thank you so much for talking with us.

• John King:

  Thank you.