Why unpaid internships still exist despite hardships for young workers

John Yang:

Internships can give students a leg up starting their careers. According to the National Association of Colleges and Employers, more than half of internships lead to full time jobs, and people with internship experience received more job offers and higher starting salaries than those without it. But nearly half of last year's interns in the United States were unpaid.

Earlier, I spoke with Washington Post reporter Kelsey Ables, who's written about this issue. I asked her how big a factor pay is for young people choosing an internship.

Kelsey Ables, Washington Post:

I guess there are a range of different experiences. Some people just kind of decide to with the sacrifice of taking one of these unpaid internships, and that can mean working extra hours.

I spoke to one person who said he walked home from his internship because paying for transportation was too expensive. And then there are other people who have to do these internships for academic credit. Some people are lucky enough to be funded by their parents, but some people end up having to work extra jobs and all of that.

But for some people it's really pivotal. I mean, one person that I spoke to, she said that, you know, she was looking at three different internships. One was unpaid, but it was at a nonprofit that she was really excited about. The other was paid, but not paid very well. It was at a think tank. And then this third option was at an investment bank and it was incredibly well paid, more than twice as much as the think tank.

She did not have financial support from her parents. She was a first generation college student and the only option she had was to take the investment bank. And she said that now sometimes she even feels bad talking about it because it doesn't feel like it represents who she is or what she wants to do going forward. But that was kind of what was necessary, she said, to get by.

John Yang:

Are there certain types of students who are more likely than not to base a decision on whether or not they're going to get paid for the summer?

Kelsey Ables:

When you look for people who do unpaid internships, often you find people who do have their parent's financial support. And some of those people I spoke to, they said that they were grateful for that. But they recognize that this isn't possible for everyone.

John Yang:

Does that skew or put disparities into the system of who gets this boost, this leg up of having an internship?

Kelsey Ables:

It does, but it also kind of creates two tiers of internships. Some data has shown that the people who are most offered unpaid internships tend to be people of color and women. So this kind of creates this kind of fracture where you have some people who are being paid and some people who aren't. And unpaid internships also are less often to lead to jobs.

They have been shown not to establish interns in the kind of industry in the same way that paid internships do. So it creates this kind of division starting at the very beginning of when you are starting not even your first job, but you're kind of like first step into the working world.

John Yang:

Are there fields or industries that are more likely than others to offer only unpaid internships?

Kelsey Ables:

So when you look at unpaid internships, it helps at first to divide into two different categories. So there are academic unpaid internships and open market unpaid internships. So academic internships are internships that are required for the completion of an academic degree. These happen in areas like social work where you're expected to do field work, in areas like psychology where you're expected to kind of treat patients as you go through and get maybe a master's in clinical psychology.

But then open market internships are internships that are sort of they're more unregulated. They're not really attached to any degree program. They're kind of just maybe a volunteer opportunity that's been kind of morphed into an internship.

For example, the European parliament recently voted in favor of a report that calls for banning unpaid internships, but specifically open market unpaid internships. It does not take issue with the academic version of them.

Then kind of the other areas that you run into them tend to be lesser funded areas. So a lot of museums, kind of arts areas, theaters, that kind of discipline you can find unpaid internships in. Media is known for having unpaid internships, unfortunately. And then there's kind of another category, which is areas where they probably could be paid, but it's not really clear why.

Some experts say that those places are ignoring the ethics of needing to pay people for work, and those tend to be in government areas. So a lot of government internships are also unpaid. Actually, it's kind of interesting. The white house just started paying interns last year.

John Yang:

You mentioned the media. I should note that the PBS NewsHour does pay the interns who come work for us. So you talk about the ethics of this. The benefits for the employer are evident. They get free labor. But does U.S. labor law say anything about this?

Kelsey Ables:

So, you know, there actually is some justification in the law that allows for this. It kind of depends on who is considered the primary beneficiary of an internship, but that also is a little bit of a gray area, how you kind of define that.

So basically the idea is, if you can make a case that the intern is the primary beneficiary, it kind of can function as an extension of the classroom. And in that case, it's okay. But I did talk to a legal expert about this, and he was kind of like, I tend to advise people to pay because I have often run into people who think, oh, it's an intern. It's someone from college. I can get away without paying them. But it's really not that simple. You need to kind of have a structure where it functions more like a classroom, and the benefit is to the intern.

John Yang:

You mentioned the European parliament voting to ban unpaid open market internships. Are there any similar efforts in the United States or any similar efforts elsewhere in the world?

Kelsey Ables:

There have been some small efforts in the United States, but I do not think any of them have been successful. I will say that there is. In France, they have actually successfully banned open market internships. And if you have an intern for more than two months, they have to be paid. Experts say that is kind of the most holistic, systematic approach that they've seen.

John Yang:

Why do you think there's no effort like that in the United States?

Kelsey Ables:

I think that what the experts often say is that when the economy is not doing great, the burden falls on the young people, and they're kind of expected to make do. I think that the reality is that there will always be people who are willing to take these internships, whether it's because they have parents who can help them pay their bills or because they'll end up working 18 hours a day just to get by. Because it makes sense career wise, I think that when people will take them, they'll continue to exist.

John Yang:

Kelsey Ables of the Washington Post. Thank you very much.

Kelsey Ables:

Thank you for having me.