Juvenile Death Penalty Update

 

KIM LAWTON, guest anchor: Also this week, in a 5-to-4 decision, the high court ruled that executing people for crimes they committed before the age of 18 is unconstitutional. This means that the dozens of people on death row for crimes committed as juveniles will now have a sentence of life in prison. The case that brought the issue to the Supreme Court involved a young Missouri man named Chris Simmons. Tim O’Brien has the story.

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TIM O’BRIEN: It started as a burglary at this home in Fenton, Missouri — about 30 miles south of St. Louis — early on a September morning in 1993. It turned into a gruesome murder.

ED KEMP (Jefferson County Sheriff’s Department): While in the home, the victim woke up, recognized both subjects. They bound her, put her in her own vehicle, transported her to a bridge and threw her over — alive.

O’BRIEN: Acting on an informant’s tip, police arrested two young suspects. Fifteen-year old Charlie Benjamin and 17-year-old Chris Simmons were picked up at their high school a day after the murder. After first denying any involvement, Simmons later gave a tearful confession to police:

CHRIS SIMMONS (confessing on tape): I had her tied up. She walked out on the bridge and I tied her hands and feet together and pushed her off.

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UNIDENTIFIED POLICEMAN #1: Who pushed her?

Mr. SIMMONS: I did.

UNIDENTIFIED POLICEMAN #1: Who?

Mr. SIMMONS: I did.

UNIDENTIFIED POLICEMAN #1: You pushed her?

Mr. SIMMONS: I did.

UNIDENTIFIED POLICEMAN #1: Okay, Chris.

O’BRIEN: Simmons even reenacted the crime for police.

UNIDENTIFIED POLICEMAN #2 (on police video): So this about where you threw her off?

Mr. SIMMONS (gesturing): Yeah.

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O’BRIEN: Simmons’s lawyer tried to get him to accept a deal — life in prison in exchange for a guilty plea. But Simmons wouldn’t hear of it.

DAVID CROSBY (Defense Attorney): We were set for a course that eventually led to trial. Here’s a child that in Missouri couldn’t buy a car because he’s under age to contract, and yet he makes life-and-death decisions.

O’BRIEN: It was an open-and-shut case.

JURY FOREMAN (at trial): We the jury find the defendant Christopher Simmons guilty of murder in the first degree.

O’BRIEN: The younger boy was sentenced to life with no parole. Simmons, 17, got the death penalty.

But a little over a year ago, the Missouri Supreme Court set aside Simmons’s death sentence, reducing it to life in prison with no parole. The court held it violates this country’s evolving standards of decency to execute anyone who was under 18 at the time of the crime — that it may have been permissible in the past, but that now it conflicts with the Eighth Amendment guarantee against cruel and unusual punishment.

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This week, a bitterly divided U.S. Supreme Court agreed.

Justice Anthony Kennedy, for a five-justice majority, observed that not only do 30 states now reject the death penalty for juveniles but that “it is fair to say that the United States now stands alone in a world that has turned its face against the juvenile death penalty.”

In a friend of the court brief, 18 recipients of the Nobel Peace Prize had urged the court to rule as it did, including former Presidents Jimmy Carter, Mikhail Gorbachev and Lech Walesa — also South Africa’s Desmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama. They told the court that “the death penalty for child offenders is contrary to internationally accepted standards of human rights.”

Sixteen years ago, the court had squarely rejected that argument in a decision that Justice Kennedy joined. Kennedy’s change of heart provided the crucial fifth vote to change course.

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Justice Antonin Scalia penned an angry dissent, dismissing the court’s majority opinion as nothing more than “the subjective views of five members of this court and like-minded foreigners.” Scalia, joined by Justices Thomas and the ailing Chief Justice William Rehnquist, said the views of the international community should have no bearing on what the U.S. Constitution means.

The court also appeared to rely heavily on claims that juveniles are ordinarily not as culpable as adults who may commit similar crimes. The American Psychiatric Association told the court that magnetic resonance imaging — MRIs like this — show that juveniles use a different part of the brain in the decision-making process than adults, making them more likely to act irrationally, less likely to appreciate the consequences of what they do.

Dr. RICHARD RATNER (American Psychiatric Association): We have learned a lot more about the function and the structure and the development of the brain.

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O’BRIEN: Dr. Ratner says not only has the execution of juvenile offenders become less acceptable but new research suggests the court also got it wrong back in 1989 when it first authorized the death penalty for juveniles.

Dr. RATNER: And in a nutshell, it is that the brain has not really matured; you do not really have an adult brain until you are in your early 20s.

O’BRIEN: You have actual empirical evidence?

Dr. RATNER: Yes, we do.

O’BRIEN: Did the Supreme Court get it right? Not if you ask Pertie Mitchell, the sister of the woman Chris Simmons murdered.

PERTIE MITCHELL (Victim’s Sister): And you know what they said? These boys went to school the next day, and they were bragging about what they had done. They said, “Guess what we did last night? We beat up an old lady, and we took her out to the trestle, and we pushed her off, and guess what she did? She went ‘bubble, bubble.'” You think that didn’t hurt us!

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O’BRIEN: Who could do such a terrible thing? While prosecutors say the victim could have been anyone, Chris Simmons’s mother says the perpetrator could have been anyone’s son.

SHERYL HAYES (Defendant’s Mother): We were caring parents for him. We did everything we could. We probably spoiled him. But there were things he was doing I had no idea he was doing. It’s broken my heart. You think about it every day. A lot of my thought is if I could just turn time backwards and none of this had ever happened.

O’BRIEN: The case of Lee Malvo had galvanized public opinion on the execution of juvenile offenders. Malvo was convicted of participating in a random sniper spree that left 10 people dead in the Washington, D.C. area two years ago. Despite his youth, prosecutors in Virginia were poised to seek the death penalty for Malvo, had the Supreme Court allowed it. He will now be spared, as will Chris Simmons and more than 70 other death row inmates who were under 18 at the time of their crimes. As a result of the High Court’s ruling, they may not be executed. Their sentences will all be reduced to life in prison.

For RELIGION & ETHICS NEWSWEEKLY, I’m Tim O’Brien in Washington.

Religion and the Second Term Commentary

Read comments from two scholars on the moral arguments and religious themes that were all part of the recent American civic liturgy — the Inaugural Address, the State of the Union Address, and the National Prayer Breakfast:

Joel Carpenter is provost and professor of history at Calvin College:

President Bush’s references at the National Prayer Breakfast to the role of prayer in times of national need echoed countless others down through the years; American presidents have frequently reminded the nation of the protecting hand of divine providence.

What is striking about President Bush’s characterizations, however, is the emphasis on religious action in the realm of relief, development, and human rights. He appeared to be speaking of a realm that is very familiar to him, the networks of charitable action that religious Americans and their congregations support. The president is not dealing in glittering generalities here, but with specific organizations and issues. He knows the work and appreciates it greatly.

Even so, he is making a political point: judge America by this outpouring of nongovernmental religious compassion, not so much by its government’s actions to stem want and disasters, man-made or natural. His concrete case of someone who suffered in war-torn Liberia and was helped by an American Christian social service agency was telling. It was an act of mercy to treat the suffering, but it was not deemed in America’s interest to intervene to stop the war.

A very modest American intervention in this nation, which was virtually an American colony, could have prevented much of the suffering. But that would need to be a governmental initiative. Mr. Bush is saying very vividly that the cause of freedom he so ardently proclaimed in his inaugural as American foreign policy does not apply in Liberia.

Steven M. Tipton is professor of the sociology of religion at Emory University:

God works in remarkable ways in the second Inaugural Address of President George W. Bush, especially in justifying America’s forceful defense of freedom around the world today, particularly (if implicitly) in Iraq, where the United States is fulfilling the providential flow of history in the direction “set by liberty and the author of liberty.”

That divine author, echoing Thomas Jefferson’s “laws of Nature and of Nature’s God” in the Declaration of Independence and linked to the “imago Dei,” is the source of America’s founding faith in freedom: “From the day of our founding, we have proclaimed that every man and woman on this earth has rights, and dignity, and matchless value, because they bear the image of the maker of heaven and earth.”

That divine author is the guarantor of freedom’s eventual triumph for all humankind and our complete confidence in our cause as its carrier. Not because “history runs on the wheels of inevitability. It is human choices that move events. Not because we consider ourselves a chosen nation. God moves and chooses as he wills,” but because we have chosen to do God’s will in advancing the cause of God-given freedom; we are an almost-chosen nation that can be confident in following our leaders along this course with God and history on our side.

Four years ago President Bush expressed confidence in keeping his solemn pledge “to build a single nation of justice and opportunity” because “we are guided by a power larger than ourselves who created us equal in His image.” He pointed out a providential angel who “rides in the whirlwind and directs this storm” through history to advance “the nation’s grand story of courage” and its “simple dream of dignity,” whose author “fills time and eternity with his purpose.” Then providence pointed out our duty to serve one another along the Good Samaritan’s path of compassionate conservatism, with just a brief aside from Mr. Bush to the enemies of liberty and our country that we would remain “engaged in the world by history and by choice, shaping a balance of power that favors freedom.”

Now providence has permitted a terrible “day of fire” to jolt us from repose after the Cold War to defend liberty in our own land by spreading it in other lands. Now our vital interests and our deepest beliefs are fused into a single struggle to decide the “moral choice between oppression, which is always wrong, and freedom, which is eternally right.”

Drawing on his speeches after 9/11, with their contrast between freedom and fear, and modulating their promise to rid the world of evil from a focus on terror to tyranny, President Bush commits the U.S. to supporting worldwide democracy “with the ultimate goal of ending tyranny in the world.” Compared to the 2001 Inaugural Address, compassion comes in for mention only in passing, with a plea to “look after a neighbor and surround the lost with love,” lest liberty for all within an ownership society come to mean independence from one another. The transformation of domestic policy, from sustaining Social Security to building free-market ownership in order to make “every citizen an agent of his or her own destiny,” remains as brief in elaboration as it is sweeping in conception.

The moral lessons the speech spells out are those of “duty and allegiance” evident in the determined faces of our soldiers. Having seen that “life is fragile, and evil is real, and courage triumphs,” we must choose to “serve in a cause larger than your wants, larger than yourself” in order to add to the character of our country, not just its wealth.

The self-sacrifice Bush urged in 2001 to serve a needy neighbor is now turned to sterner tasks. His earlier insistence that our public interest depends on private character now shifts from self-giving to self-discipline. “Self-government relies, in the end, on the governing of the self. That edifice of character is built in families, supported by communities with standards, and sustained in our national life by the truths of Sinai, the Sermon on the Mount, the word of the Qur’an, and the varied faiths of our people.” Rooted in religious faith, timeless and true moral ideals build moral character and sustain democratic progress in America and around the world. The speech is indeed a call to march in a moral crusade identified with the cause of freedom given by God and defining the providential course of history. Whether that means supporting or opposing the policies of the Bush administration at home and abroad, conscientious citizens and their elected representatives in Congress must now debate and decide.

Abstinence-Only Sex Education

 

BOB ABERNETHY, anchor: One of the most difficult religious and ethical questions facing many communities — and often tearing them apart — is how the public schools should educate children about sex.

Some want a comprehensive approach that recommends abstinence but also covers birth control and disease prevention. Others, especially religious conservatives, want abstinence education only. But some say comprehensive sex ed encourages sexual activity, and others feel the abstinence-only approach results in more pregnancy and disease. Lucky Severson examined the dilemma in Lubbock, Texas.

LUCKY SEVERSON: There is one thing all sides of the heated debate over sex education for kids can agree on — the need.

ADAM HERNANDEZ (Student): I think it is hard being our age and being in high school is hard, just not having sex.

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Marilyn Morris

SEVERSON: Every day, the battle over how best to educate kids about sex gets more polarized. This is Marilyn Morris. She runs the country’s largest abstinence-only sex education program, called Aim for Success. Today she’s the invited speaker at the Vines High School Abstinence Club near Dallas.

MARILYN MORRIS (Aim for Success) (Talking to Students): Folks, good news: this abstinence thing is huge. It’s moving all across America.

SEVERSON: Aim represents a rapidly growing movement, strongly promoted by President Bush, that the only solution to teen pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases, or STDs, is total abstinence until marriage. No condoms, no sex.

Ms. MORRIS: I think that you have to understand that what we have been doing in America for all 35 years is encouraging comprehensive sex education. And what that did is encourage sexual activity.

SEVERSON: Vilka Scott Kitching takes an opposite view. She is a disease intervention specialist at the Lubbock, Texas health department, and says she sees too many teens with STDs.

VILKA SCOTT KITCHING (Disease Intervention Specialist, Lubbock Health Department): Time and time again we have people in our clinic who come totally unprepared to face a disease of that nature because nobody had spoken to them about the consequences of starting to have sex without any protection.

Ms. MORRIS (Talking to Students): Did you know that every single day in our country, 2,305 teenaged girls get pregnant?

SEVERSON: The good news, according to Marilyn Morris, is that the number of teen pregnancies has been coming down — still, over 800,000 teens get pregnant each year. Morris tells the kids she was one of those statistics, and that’s what motivated her to push abstinence only.

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Ms. MORRIS (Talking to Students): If you’re the one it’s happening to, you’d find out like I did, it is a big deal. In fact, it was more like a living nightmare. Here I was, 17. I had all kinds of dreams and goals ahead of me.

SEVERSON: Her message is that abstinence only allows kids to fulfill their dreams without the nightmare of unwanted pregnancy or diseases such as chlamydia.

Ms. MORRIS (Talking to Students): Ready? (sprays card held by student) You don’t have it.

SEVERSON: She dwells on the dangerous and deadly diseases that often go undetected for years.

Ms. MORRIS (Talking to Students): Are you ready? Here we go, 10th-grade guys (sprays card and it turns red).

ED AINSWORTH (Whiteheart Communications) (Talking to Students): How many of you have watched the television show FRIENDS? Raise your hand.

SEVERSON: Ed Ainsworth is another abstinence-only advocate who lecturers nationwide. These are sixth graders at the Ropesville School near Lubbock, Texas.

First, he ridicules the “sex is okay” culture that surrounds today’s teenagers, including prime-time TV programs like the sitcom, FRIENDS.

Mr. AINSWORTH (Talking to Students): Is that TV show about sex? It is about all of them having as much sex as they can with whoever they want to, right?

SEVERSON: He says the first time he had sex was the day he married Connie.

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Ed Ainsworth

Mr. AINSWORTH (Talking to Students): If you have sex outside marriage, it will cost you. It may cost you physically with a pregnancy or a disease. It may cost you mentally and emotionally with your reputation. How you feel about yourself. It may cost you spiritually, and I know with my boundaries I can’t talk to you about the spiritual consequences because we are in school. But believe me, young people, there are tons of spiritual consequences.

SEVERSON: Ropesville, like hundreds of school districts across the country, receives federal funding for programs that are almost exclusively abstinence only. Over the past 5 years, the government has spent more than $800 million on such programs. Schools like Ropesville provide no comprehensive sex education, but invite abstinence-only lecturers like Ainsworth to fill the gap.

Mr. AINSWORTH (Talking to Students): I got up this morning and said, “Lord, all I want is one teenager. All I want is one. Help me change one life and I will be a success today.”

SEVERSON: Ainsworth is legally prohibited from mixing religion with his presentations, but like many on the lecture circuit, Ainsworth comes from an evangelical background and says if the kids are like him and have a close relationship with Christ, they’ll stay sexually pure. He has also been a youth pastor for 27 years.

Mr. AINSWORTH (Speaking in Church): It is the will of God that you abstain from sexual impurity until you are married.

They’ve heard me at school, and then they hear me in a church. They tell me in a church it makes way more, much more sense. Why? Because there’s the power behind the message.

SEVERSON: The message, he says, is one reason fewer teens are giving birth in Lubbock, although teen pregnancy started inching down nationwide before abstinence-only education became popular. Meanwhile, Lubbock has experienced an epidemic of gonorrhea and chlamydia. Lubbock disease specialist Vilka Scott Kitching wouldn’t allow her 12-year-old daughter to attend an Ainsworth class because she says she has seen too many patients who had.

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Vilka Scott Kitching

Ms. SCOTT KITCHING: They tell us, “Well, this guy came to school and he said condoms don’t work, so, I didn’t use one. But I was going to have sex anyway, so here I am with one, two, three STDs.” But young people eventually do have sex. I would rather they had more comprehensive information about the subject than just say no to it.

SEVERSON: In 2002, some Lubbock high school students grew so alarmed at the surge of sexually transmitted diseases, they requested more sex education in schools — more comprehensive sex education. They were refused.

Erica Vales attended one of Ainsworth’s sessions.

ERICA VALES (Student): Like, he didn’t say anything about birth control. He just said the Bible says abstinence is better until marriage — that was in the assembly we took during school. He told us that.

Mr. AINSWORTH: I am not going to promote the use of condoms and those kinds of things, knowing that a student can listen to me and walk out of here and, albeit their choice, go have sex with someone who has AIDS, and use a condom, and die.

DARLENE WORKMAN (School Nurse, Vines High): I spent eight years handing out the protection. And you know what? They’re too young to be mature enough to use it.

SEVERSON: Darlene Workman is the school nurse at Vines High. She came here after quitting her job as a director of a family planning clinic in Michigan, where they taught comprehensive sex education and handed out condoms.

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Darlene Workman

Ms. WORKMAN: One of my students came up to me and said, “Well, Ms. Workman, if you’re handing these out, that means you must think it’s okay for us to participate.” And I never in the world thought it was okay. So what I did was quit.

SEVERSON: One of the first things she did here was start an abstinence-only club. They are becoming increasingly prevalent throughout the country. This is David.

DAVID: When condoms are presented as a way to have safe sex and avoid the ramifications, they do encourage teens to have sex.

Ms. VALES: Well, it will encourage some people, but it will prevent a lot of pregnancies. Or even just telling girls about birth control. Because nobody ever talks about birth control.

SEVERSON: A recent congressional study cast some doubt on the effectiveness of federally funded abstinence-only programs. The study found scientific inaccuracies in many of the textbooks, which, for instance, quote a much higher failure rate of condoms than is the case.

One textbook states that the HIV virus can be transmitted through tears, sweat, and saliva. Not true. Marilyn Morris says the study was biased and politically motivated.

Ms. MORRIS: Because I think they are people who are very, maybe, antireligious. And they looked at the abstinence message as a religious message. But for us, at Aim for Success, it is a health issue.

SEVERSON: Another study found that 88 percent of kids who had taken an abstinence pledge admitted having sexual intercourse before marriage, and that teens who contracted STDs were less likely to realize they had a disease.

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Ms. SCOTT KITCHING: The more knowledge you have on the subject, the more equipped you are to handle that subject. If you look at studies in other countries, in Europe where sex education is comprehensive, you can see clearly that their rates are lower than ours.

SEVERSON: And in Texas, the STD rates keep rising steadily.

Ms. WORKMAN: That says we have a lot of work to do. It doesn’t say that we should hand out condoms, to me, at all. I think the churches need to get together. I think the community needs to get together. I think the parents need to take up to the plate — stand up to the plate and take some action here.

SEVERSON: For some kids, the debate and the dilemma come down to this. Can moral arguments persuade them to avoid sex until marriage, or if they’re taught about condoms and safe sex, does that encourage them to have sex? Or is the answer somewhere in the middle?

For RELIGION & ETHICS NEWSWEEKLY, I’m Lucky Severson in Ropesville, Texas.

ABERNETHY: Although major studies are in progress, there are as yet no generally accepted data on the consequences of comprehensive versus abstinence-only sex education.

Religion and the Second Term

 

BOB ABERNETHY, anchor: Across the political and theological spectrums, religious conservatives, moderates, and liberals all have their own hopes for the president’s second term. Some conservatives say it’s payback time for their support in the election. Others say, “Don’t forget the poor.”

Kim Lawton has our story today on America’s religious agendas.

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KIM LAWTON: In his State of the Union Address, President Bush outlined his plans and goals for the future. The next morning, at the National Prayer Breakfast, the president acknowledged the importance of praying for wisdom in guiding the country.

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Prayer means more than presenting God with our plans and desires. Prayer also means opening ourselves to God’s priorities.

LAWTON: Conservative evangelicals and Catholics are optimistic this bodes well for their policy priorities. Many in those communities worked hard for Bush’s reelection and are now confident he will move ahead on the issues they care about most.

Dr. RICHARD LAND (President, Southern Baptist Convention’s Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission): The expectations are very high among my constituency that this president is going to do his best to fulfill his promises. We believe this president to be a man who keeps his word. And he’s a man who not only understands our issues, he shares our worldview.

LAWTON: Democratic activist John Podesta is part of a growing movement of faith-based moderates and liberals who pledge to counter many of the positions religious conservatives are pushing for.

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JOHN PODESTA (President and CEO, Center for American Progress): They formed, certainly, the backbone of the people who were out on the streets trying to get the president reelected. And they’re asking for a lot, but I think they’re asking for things that the American people really don’t want. I think they have a very cramped view, I think, of what the critical issues in front of the country are.

LAWTON: As president of the Southern Baptist Convention’s Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, Land says he sees several priorities for Bush’s second term.

Dr. LAND: My community, Southern Baptists and other evangelicals, want the president to strongly defend traditional marriage by giving presidential support to a marriage protection amendment. We want the president to continue to strongly push a pro-life agenda, and to support pro-life legislation that will be introduced in the House and the Senate, and to continue to promote freedom and democracy.

LAWTON: Their confidence may be high, but some evangelical leaders are cautioning against a “payback time” mentality.

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Reverend RICHARD CIZIK (Vice President, Governmental Affairs, National Association of Evangelicals): Our values are the president’s values, but we simply can’t run roughshod all over Washington. Evangelicals, yes, we have a right to expect a response from Congress and the White House, but we also have to be, yes, as Christians, magnanimous.

LAWTON: There are still many political realities in Washington. At last month’s March for Life, Bush promised to continue his support for what he called a “culture of life,” although he offered no specifics. He repeated that during his State of the Union Address, although he never mentioned the word “abortion.” Evangelical leaders are urging new restrictions on abortion, but they concede those restrictions are modest ones.

Rev. CIZIK: They’re admittedly not overturning ROE V. WADE. They’re addressing it at the margins. But that’s what we expect.

LAWTON: There are also political uncertainties surrounding a constitutional amendment to define marriage as between one man and one woman — an issue that galvanized many conservative voters in November.

During the State of the Union speech, the president reaffirmed his support for the amendment. Still, some conservatives are dismayed that Bush is focusing so much more on Social Security reform.

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Dr. LAND: Among the social conservatives there’s not the kind of consensus for Social Security reform that you have, for instance, on protecting marriage between a man and a woman, or on the pro-life issue.

LAWTON: Senate leaders have not included the marriage amendment among their top legislative priorities, and conservatives say it will take presidential pressure to help get the two-thirds majority needed to pass it.

Dr. LAND: We do not want any wavering on an amendment to the Constitution to protect marriage from a runaway imperial judiciary in the United States.

LAWTON: While much of the rhetoric focuses on abortion and gay marriage, some leaders say there is much more on the evangelical agenda.

Rev. CIZIK: We want action, for example, to address religious liberty, democracy-building overseas, and religious liberty on the faith-based initiative here in the States — broadening that at the state and local level. We would like action, yes, on poverty issues and on the environment. So we have a broad agenda. And don’t typify us all simply by the term which is for us at times derogatory: “religious Right.” We are mainstream America.

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LAWTON: But Cizik ultimately believes that much of the future agenda hinges on success in Iraq.

Rev. CIZIK: The biggest issue, even for evangelicals, is Iraq. And if the elections, if the democracy-building project — as we call it — in Iraq fails, it may well be that this president’s legacy fails.

LAWTON: Other religious groups also say they have a broad range of priorities for the second term. The U.S. Catholic bishops, for example, have on their list opposition to gay marriage, abortion, and embryonic stem cell research, but they also include support for a host of social justice issues.

John Podesta, a Catholic, is trying to mobilize religious progressives through the Center for American Progress.

Mr. PODESTA: There are a lot of people who go back to those traditional values that you find in the Bible that talk about poverty, that talk about economic justice, that talk about concern for the poor and the left behind and the left out in society, and I think what needs to happen is that those issues have to be brought back to the public square, if you will.

LAWTON: Some of the biggest concerns are over Social Security reform, which many religious moderates and liberals fear will dismantle the social safety net. Rabbi David Saperstein of the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism.

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Rabbi DAVID SAPERSTEIN (Director, Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism): The moral test of any civilized nation is what it does for the weak, the least among us, to use the Christian terminology — the widow and the orphan, the child and the elderly. If our policies do not create zones of protection for those people, we have failed to live up to our biblical mandates.

Mr. PODESTA: Where [Bush is] going on health care and Social Security, on taxation, putting all the benefits to the very wealthiest Americans and denying essential services to the poorest Americans, I think we’re going to have to fight with him — quite a bit.

LAWTON: Big fights are expected over judicial nominees and, in particular, any new appointments to the U.S. Supreme Court. Social conservatives see this as a vital issue that will affect all their other priorities. They will strongly oppose what they call “activist judges who legislate from the bench.”

Rev. LAND: We want justices like Clarence Thomas and justices like Antonin Scalia. We want judges like those justices, and the president has said that’s what he wants. And so, it would be a grave disappointment to me if we were to get people like David Souter.

LAWTON: Religious liberals are gearing up to strongly oppose any scaling back of rights granted by recent court decisions.

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Rabbi SAPERSTEIN: What would disappoint me most is to unravel the great achievements of the 20th century, to reshape the federal courts in a way that abandons the extraordinary transformative expansion of fundamental rights that made life so much better for women and for all minorities in America, including religious minorities, by their assertion of a strong wall that keeps government out of religion.

LAWTON: Despite their concerns in many areas, faith-based moderates and liberals do see areas for common cause with the president. Rabbi Saperstein says he is particularly optimistic about the Middle East peace process in the wake of new Palestinian leadership.

Rabbi SAPERSTEIN: With the election of Abbas, it is really possible now that we could get the parties back to the table. This administration seems committed to investing financially, politically, to make that happen.

LAWTON: Saperstein and others in his movement are hoping to build on the president’s initiatives on human rights and international religious freedom, debt relief, foreign aid, and fighting the spread of HIV/AIDS.

Rabbi SAPERSTEIN: If he is open to listening to good ideas from across the political spectrum and seeking to heal the country of its divisions by governing from the center, on both domestic and foreign policy issues, there’s a lot that we can do together.

LAWTON: Religious groups say they’ll get an even clearer picture of the president’s agenda in his proposed budget for 2006. That’s scheduled to be presented to Congress this coming week. Faith-based lobbyists say they will examine the document closely to see what the administration will be focusing on in coming months.

I’m Kim Lawton on Capitol Hill.

Election 2004 Analysis

 

BOB ABERNETHY, anchor: The religious vote was decisive in President Bush’s reelection this week. Massive get-out-the-vote efforts among evangelical Protestants and conservative Catholics provided the margin of victory for the president. Despite the Democrats’ attempts to reach out to people of faith, experts say an ongoing “religion gap” in American politics was even more pronounced. An analysis of that, coming up. Among all voters, “moral values” edged out terrorism, the economy, and Iraq as the top issue of concern. This was particularly true for evangelicals. Many of them were galvanized by the issue of gay marriage. Voters in 11 states amended their constitutions to ban same-sex marriage. Several of those measures will now face legal challenges.

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The president’s strong backing from religious conservatives echoed findings last spring in a RELIGION & ETHICS NEWSWEEKLY national survey of American evangelicals. Three quarters of white evangelicals said the country’s moral values are on the wrong track. More than a third ranked moral values as their number one concern.

With us now to analyze the religious vote in the presidential election is John Green, director of the Ray Bliss Center for Applied Politics at the University of Akron in Ohio. He is one of the country’s leading experts on religion and politics. He joins us now by satellite, and Kim Lawton of RELIGION & ETHICS NEWSWEEKLY is also here. John, how would you describe the importance of religious conservatives to the president’s reelection?

Professor JOHN GREEN (Ray C. Bliss Center for Applied Politics, University of Akron): Well, religious conservatives were absolutely critical to President Bush’s reelection last Tuesday. But it was a broader coalition of religious groups. Central to that group were evangelical Protestants, but it also included Catholics, black Protestants, and other groups as well.

ABERNETHY: We have detailed breakdowns of the exit polls conducted on Election Day by Edison Media Research and Mitofsky International. Kim.

KIM LAWTON: John, help us walk through some of those specific groups that you just talked about. And we have the numbers. Let’s take a look first at the white evangelical vote. We have 78 percent of white evangelicals voted for Bush, and 22 percent did vote for Kerry. But when you switch that and look at church attendance, there was another jump. Those who attend church more than once a week — it jumped to 81 percent for George Bush. I know the Republicans made a really big push for evangelicals; there was a lot of grassroots mobilization. They called it the “ground game.” Looks like it was pretty successful, doesn’t it?

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Prof. GREEN: Oh yes, it was. Of course, white evangelicals have been part of the Republican coalition for about 20 years now. But in this very close election, Karl Rove and President Bush wanted to get a very big turnout and a lot of support. And they, by and large, got what they wanted.

LAWTON: Now, word had it that Karl Rove was very unhappy during the last election with evangelical turnout. Did that improve this time around?

Prof. GREEN: You know, we don’t have the final figures on turnout yet. But it really does look like he was successful in urging the evangelicals to turn out in larger numbers, particularly in the swing states like Florida and Ohio.

LAWTON: What about other Protestants — mainline Protestants — how did they go?

Prof. GREEN: Well, mainline Protestants have long been a mainstay of the Republican Party. Typically, Republican presidents win about half of the vote. And that happened this time. President Bush got a majority of mainline Protestants. But his support was down a little bit from the 2000 election, particularly among the regular[ly] attending mainline Protestants.

LAWTON: This was a group that the Kerry campaign had really targeted. Were they successful?

Prof. GREEN: Well, apparently they were. This was one real bright spot for the Kerry campaign among the religious groups. A lot of those regular[ly] attending mainline Protestants have somewhat more liberal theology and care about issues like the environment and poverty, and Senator Kerry was able to reduce the president’s margins among that group and do quite well.

Religious Groups and Voting Behavior
2004 and 2000 (two-party vote)
Bush Kerry Bush Gore
All white born again Protestants 78% 22 71% 29
Regular attending 81% 19 80% 20
Less regular attending 71% 29 54% 46
All white non-born again Protestants 52% 47 56% 44
Regular attending 54% 46 62% 38
Less regular attending 53% 47 52% 48
Mormons 80% 20 * *
All Catholics 52% 48 49% 51
White Catholics 56% 44 53% 47
Regular attending 60% 40 59% 42
Less regular attending 53% 47 48% 52
Hispanic Catholics 42% 58 31% 69
Black Protestants 16% 83** 9% 91
Jews 25% 74 20% 80
Unaffiliated 30% 70 32% 68
*not asked in 2000
** more than weekly attenders were 22% for Bush and 78% for Kerry

LAWTON: Let’s talk about another group. There were some surprises in black Protestants, a little bit. When you look at the numbers, 83 percent did vote for Kerry. But those who identify themselves as black Protestants, 16 percent voted for Bush. And when you add church attendance into the mix, it really jumps: 22 percent of black Protestants who go to church more than once a week voted for Bush. Now people might say, “Well, 80 percent still voted for Kerry.” Is this a big deal?

Prof. GREEN: Well, in a very close election, this is a big deal because the president was able to eat into a core Democratic constituency. You know, there were some surveys before the election that suggested that this might happen. And indeed it came to pass. And I suspect it’s because of issues like gay marriage that were strongly emphasized by many black pastors. Sixteen percent of the vote is about twice what President Bush received in 2000. So this was a gain for him.

LAWTON: Let’s look at the Catholic vote. That seemed to be pretty divided. We had 52 percent for Bush, 48 percent for Kerry. Again, among regular Mass attenders, then, the numbers jump even higher for Bush — 58 percent. What did you make of that?

Prof. GREEN: Well, the president not only targeted evangelicals, he targeted Catholics –particularly traditional Catholics — and had some success. Back in 2000, the vote was evenly divided, but Al Gore actually won the Catholic vote as a whole. And President Bush was actually able to reverse that and actually come out ahead among all Catholics. But he did particularly well among regular Mass-attending Catholics.

LAWTON: And one final group — the seculars — those who aren’t affiliated. Kerry got overwhelmingly the majority of that vote: 70 percent. What does that say?

Prof. GREEN: Well, the Democratic Party has relied on secular or nonaffiliated voters for a few elections now. And Senator Kerry did about as well as Al Gore did among that group. But you know, the turnout was much higher. So Senator Kerry was able to benefit by a lot of secular voters turning out and voting on Tuesday.

ABERNETHY: Also with us is Joseph Loconte, a Fellow in Religion and a Free Society at the Heritage Foundation in Washington. Welcome to you, Joe.

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JOSEPH LOCONTE (Fellow, Religion and a Free Society, Heritage Foundation): Thanks for having me.

ABERNETHY: What can we expect in these next four years, based on these election returns?

Mr. LOCONTE: Yeah, well, I think we are going to see, surprisingly — I think we are going to see President Bush govern more like a principled pragmatist than many of his critics are right now assuming. They are assuming that he owes his great debt to his religious, conservative base on certain issues and that he is going to push the cultural agenda forward. But I don’t think that’s really Bush’s governing style, ’cause he has shown real restraint on some of these cultural issues, these hot button cultural issues — stem cell research, for example. He was only kind of pulled into the gay marriage debate, somewhat unwillingly. So I think there is going to be much more of a kind of a principled pragmatism to deal with these issues in the next months and years.

LAWTON: Do you think that the evangelicals, though, are going to want to see that agenda move forward? I’ve heard stories that some of them are already putting the Bush administration on notice: “Hey look, we kept you here. We expect to see some results.”

Mr. LOCONTE: Yeah, well, they are certainly going to want to see the president hold the line on embryonic stem cell research — no federal funding for that. Bush has said plainly in the debates, he’s against federal funding for abortion — he’ll hold the line on that. Let’s take Supreme Court judges, where the cultural issues tend to bubble up so much. Bush’s line here has been that he wants judges who will — who know the difference between their own opinions and settled constitutional law. So I don’t think that Bush is going to bring before the court, for example, a judge who would overturn ROE V. WADE. And Bush himself has said he doesn’t think the country is ready for that. So, certainly, Bush is going to hold the line on some of these issues, but I think be very, very cautious about trying to push the cultural agenda much further than where a general consensus of the country is.

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ABERNETHY: I want to ask you and John both about the gap between the seculars on the one hand and very, very devoted, conservative Christians on the other. What do the Democrats have to do if they are ever going to win an election again?

Mr. LOCONTE: I think there is a bit of mythology out there right now which is saying that the Democrats need to develop a language to talk about morality and faith. But I think it’s much deeper than a language or a style. I think that some of the core values of the Democratic Party — I think they have to think about, why do they not seem to resonate? Why do the core values of the Democratic Party, in terms of the life issues — this culture-of-life debate and the sanctity of marriage — why does that not seem to resonate now with so much of red America? I think there is going to be a real soul searching, hopefully, soul searching in the Democratic Party on some of those core value questions.

ABERNETHY: John?

Prof. GREEN: I would tend to agree with Joe on that. I think that the Democrats do need to adjust some of their policies if they want to reduce the worship attendance gap and find a way to get the support of very devout Christians from various backgrounds. But you know, I would disagree a little bit; I think the language of faith is quite important because there are some issues, such as the environment and taking care of the poor, where lots of conservative Christians actually agree with the Democratic Party. But that language needs to pull them in on the basis of their faith values and not just secular arguments. So, in my view, the Democrats need to do both things.

ABERNETHY: Very quickly, John, moral values means different things to different people. Is there any consensus about that?

Prof. GREEN: No, there really isn’t. To conservative Christians the [phrase] “moral values” tends to refer to sexual behavior and issues such as marriage and abortion. To more liberal Christians, secular people, Jews, Muslims, that tends to oftentimes mean social justice questions — poverty, the environment, war and peace. We all think that morality is important, but we can’t agree on what is moral.

ABERNETHY: Many thanks to Kim Lawton, to Joseph Loconte of the Heritage Foundation, and to John Green of the University of Akron.

Islamic Art

 

BOB ABERNETHY, anchor: Now, a special look at art in the Muslim world. It’s always had limits because the Qur’an’s rejection of all forms of idolatry has been interpreted as a ban on any representation of a living being — no animals, no humans. So Islamic artists have specialized in beautiful writing, intricate designs, and rich materials and colors. You can see that at the National Gallery of Art in Washington, which is showing a collection from the Victoria and Albert Museum in London. The senior curator there is Tim Stanley.

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TIM STANLEY (Senior Curator for the Middle East, Victoria and Albert Museum, London): Islam, as a religion, actually has very little to do with the material world. Islam itself does not prescribe how art should be, apart from very broad rules such as that you shouldn’t use human or animal images in a religious context.

The religious objects that we’ve got in the exhibition include, for example, a minbar.

A minbar is the pulpit that was used by the preacher in the main mosque of the city to deliver the sermon at the noonday prayer on a Friday. It’s decorated with very grand patterns and with calligraphy.

We’ve actually got some of the scientific instruments that were used by Muslims in order to establish both the time of the daily prayers but also the direction of the Ka’aba in Mecca so that they could say their prayers in the right direction.

The Middle East is the focus of piety for Muslims. The ceramics workshops began to produce large tiles which were decorated with a sort of diagram of the holy places in Mecca. And above this diagram, there’s actually a quotation from the Qur’an that makes the statement that Muslims should go on the hajj if they have the resources to do so.

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Muslims are buried so that when they rise again on the last day, they will be facing the Ka’aba in Mecca. And in the exhibition, for example, we have three tiles that make up a large tomb marker that covered a distant descendant of the Prophet Muhammad.

The Qur’an is the thing which God sent into the world which created Islam and, therefore, it is very highly valued in Islam, very highly esteemed. The very highly trained calligraphers would be writing in special scripts that were particularly decorative and beautiful … on papyrus and parchment, using reed pens.

There aren’t enormous numbers of religious symbols in Islam and, of course, there’s no religious iconography that’s used in mosques. In Islam, everyone was responsible for worshipping in places that were in order, that weren’t offensive in any way to God.

Commentary: The 2004 Election

Read more analysis and commentary from scholars around the country on religion and the 2004 election.

Mark J. Rozell, Professor of Public Policy, George Mason University:

In 2000, turnout among the core constituency of the religious Right was a disappointment to the Republicans. Bush and his campaign people were very aware that they needed to mobilize those white evangelical conservatives who sat out the 2000 election. The effort this time was hugely successful and probably gave Bush his margin of victory. Bush spent four years cultivating the religious Right constituency. With Bush in the White House another four years and Congress more strongly controlled by the GOP, religious conservatives have much to celebrate. This might be the best opportunity ever for the movement’s agenda to succeed.

For Democrats, the new slogan should be “it’s the culture, stupid.” The party has to find a way to bring back white evangelicals and churchgoing Catholics who have abandoned the party.

George Hunsinger, McCord Professor of Theology, Princeton Theological Seminary:

Our presidential election was, for much of the world, a referendum on the politics of deceit.

The administration did not tell the truth in leading our nation into war. It is deeply implicated in allegations of torture. It has bombed, and continues to bomb, densely populated areas like Fallujah, Tal Afar, and Sadr City, causing massive civilian casualties. Not least, it has perpetrated such enormities under the cover of pious falsehoods.

Only a twisted view of morality can have been at stake if “moral issues” mattered most to voters and were key to President Bush’s win. The catastrophes that lie before us are now incalculable. We have sown the wind and will reap the whirlwind.

Stephen V. Monsma, Research Fellow, The Henry Institute for the Study of Christianity and Politics, Calvin College:

The fact that more people cited “moral values” as the most important issue in this election is astounding.

More cited this issue than cited war in Iraq, or the economy, or terrorism. I believe the reason for this — and this is based on my intuition, not hard data — is the same-sex marriage issue. The gay rights activists may have overreached themselves in pushing in the courts for same-sex marriage. Their doing so may very well have raised the visibility of cultural/social issues in many people’s minds, leading them to go to the polls when they otherwise might not have done so and raising their level of concern over where our nation is going in terms of such issues.

The fact that almost 80 percent of those who cited “moral values” as their most important issue voted for George W. Bush suggests the extent to which Bush was helped by the high visibility of this issue. This 80 percent also no doubt overlaps with Protestants who reported attending church weekly, 70 percent of whom voted for Bush, and Catholics who reported attending church weekly, 55 percent of whom voted for Bush. Since about 40 percent of all Americans attend church weekly, the Democrats will have a hard time electing a president until they are more sensitive to the concerns of the churchgoing populace. There are ways they can do this and still largely maintain their liberal issue positions, but they must become much more sophisticated in doing so.

Mark D. Regnerus, Assistant Professor of Sociology, University of Texas at Austin:

The Democratic Party in the U.S. needs some housecleaning. They continue to alienate a large portion of the American electorate — evangelical Protestants and traditional Catholics — primarily by failing to moderate some of their socially liberal positions. We presently do not live in a nation where “it’s the economy, stupid.” As the exit polls showed yesterday, “it’s moral values, stupid.” Many American Christians are actually quite flexible about economic issues such as taxes and big- versus little-government arguments, much more so than either party realizes. They are also more flexible on stem cell research. It’s obvious they are not flexible on gay marriage (nor are most Americans, religious or otherwise). However, such religious conservatives don’t appreciate the treatment they get from the Democratic Party and their high-profile spokespersons. Bush speaks their language, as the exit poll numbers from white conservative Protestants revealed. In the end, America’s religious conservatives are spooked by the left wing of the Democratic Party.

If Democrats want a shot in 2006 or 2008, the platform on social issues (e.g., abortion rights, gay marriage) has got to be moderated, shocking as that may sound to party members’ ears. I believe the evidence suggests that pro-life Democrats would appeal to many religious conservatives, especially Catholics, but the Democratic Party continues to chew them up and spit them out.

Laura R. Olson, Associate Professor of Political Science, Clemson University:

The long shadow of Ronald Reagan looms large over Tuesday’s election results. The political mobilization of evangelical Protestants that Reagan began has been the most important change in the past quarter century of American electoral politics. Reagan’s appeal to evangelicals was primarily rhetorical; in the end, his administration did not deliver many concrete policy outcomes to the evangelical constituency. Yet the Reagan phenomenon led to a lasting political realignment, first in the Southeast (when he took millions of votes away from the devout Baptist Jimmy Carter) and later across the United States in rural communities. This political realignment has led many people of faith to view the Republican Party as the only party that takes its needs and concerns seriously. Karl Rove is well aware of this fact and made mobilizing evangelicals at the precinct level the centerpiece of George W. Bush’s reelection strategy. Because President Bush is himself an evangelical Protestant, he is all the more able to stimulate loyalty and affection among evangelical Republicans. They clearly believe that Bush is one of them. In a stunning turn of events, the economy and the war in Iraq were less important to millions of voters than the nebulous notion of “moral values.”

The Democratic Party needs to address the fact that it is no longer widely perceived as having a prophetic moral vision. Among many evangelicals, Democrats are seen as scornful, secular, urban literati who do not understand or appreciate their traditional lifestyles. For most of the twentieth century, however, this was not the case. Democrats were the party of social justice, fighting against racism and poverty in a way that squared well with the beliefs and orientations of many people of faith across the United States. The Reagan era swept this more liberal religious-political witness off of the political stage, and the “religious Left” in this country is flailing today. Left-leaning groups, including Sojourners, tried very hard during Election 2004 to encourage voters of faith to believe that “God is not a Republican.” Yet Democratic candidates, including John Kerry, are not doing a good job explaining their political views in terms of moral vision. In his speech at the Democratic National Convention, John Edwards did speak briefly of the “immorality” of poverty, but this theme did not carry forward throughout the fall campaign. John Kerry’s own public discussion of the relationship between faith and politics was consistently stilted and unclear. If they wish to succeed in future presidential elections, Democrats need to ask themselves how they can reach out to voters of faith with their own version of morality politics.

Robin W. Lovin, Cary Maguire University Professor of Ethics, Southern Methodist University:

Apparently, it’s not the economy, anymore. If the exit polls are right, people are making their political choices in light of moral considerations. Perhaps they have always done so, even if the pollsters never thought to ask them about it until some specific moral questions became important in the 2004 campaign. Liberals who have characteristically built consensus for economic justice, public education, corporate responsibility, and even world peace by appeals to self-interest may have to think again about the moral foundations of justice and peace, if they want to regain a place in this part of the public discussion.

Of course, making a moral case for justice and peace might increase the polarization in society by mobilizing a new corps of intolerant social liberals to match the intolerant social conservatives who may have tipped the balance last Tuesday. It’s not clear that a political system that tilts 51 percent to 48 percent toward the goals of intolerant liberals would be superior to the one we have, although I would probably be marginally more pleased with the results.

What might improve the situation would be new attention to the health of the discussion itself. We want to elect presidents who will represent our values and support legislation that will enforce our moral choices because we have no confidence in our ability to explain those choices to our neighbors or persuade them to see their moral universe as a place where we could live together. If there were forums for broad, public moral discussion in our religious institutions, universities, and local communities, we might not need to rely on a quadrennial barrage of attack ads and talk radio to try to get the point across. And if the issues that divide us culturally actually could be debated in the wider culture, then all of us, liberals and conservatives alike, might begin to hold politicians accountable for the problems that politics really can solve, instead of electing them as symbols of the values that we could represent better with our own lives and voices, closer to home.

Corwin Smidt, Director, The Henry Institute for the Study of Christianity and Politics, Calvin College:

Consistent with Karl Rove’s strategy to energize and mobilize President Bush’s base as a means to secure Bush’s reelection, evangelical Christians did play an important role in shaping the outcome of the 2004 presidential election. However, in these initial days following the election, less has been made of another important factor in shaping that outcome — namely, the Catholic vote. Over the course of the past several decades, the historic Democratic character of the Catholic vote has been dissipating. In the 2000 presidential election, exit polls revealed that 46 percent of Catholics had cast their [votes for] Bush. Not all of Rove’s strategy, however, was to energize the base vote; the Bush-Cheney ticket also sought to “peel off” more Catholics from the Democratic coalition. Major efforts were made to court the Catholic vote, particularly among those Catholics who were the religiously faithful. This strategy also appears to have paid off, as the exit polls in 2004 revealed that 52 percent of all Catholics reported having cast their ballots for Bush — an increase of 6 percent between 2000 and 2004 for Bush. And this is all the more remarkable given that Senator Kerry is a Roman Catholic. Clearly the level of Catholic support for Kerry stands in stark contrast to Catholic support given to Kennedy less than 50 years ago.

Richard B. Miller, Professor of Religious Studies and Director of the Poynter Center for the Study of Ethics and American Institutions, Indiana University:

That many of the voting public judged the Republican Party to be a steward of moral values is one of the great ironies and depressing facts of the 2004 presidential election. One can only guess what voters thought those values to be. Likely topics include the proposed constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage; the ban on partial-birth abortion, and the ban on publicly funding stem cell research. Notice what is missing from this list: the injustice of the war in Iraq; disregard for the environment; rising poverty; corporate corruption at home and crony capitalism abroad; loss of health care coverage for millions; intolerance of dissident speech; an enormous deficit; ongoing nefarious arms trading; tax cuts for the wealthy; and weakening of the social contract and the safety net that it ought to provide. The Republicans succeeded in heaping moral confusion on the American people by turning attention away from macro issues involving social and infrastructural problems toward micro issues of family, sex, and the body. They did so by way of a three-fold strategy.

First, they simplified moral issues. Absent was the idea that social, ethical, and political issues are complicated, that moral inquiry proceeds dialectically, that arguments on various sides need to be considered in a measured and careful manner. Moral issues, now absorbed into the fractious culture wars, have been reduced to matters of a sound bite, allowing for little time or nuance. Indeed, “nuance,” like “liberalism,” has achieved the status of a pejorative term. On this landscape of moral simplicity, positions are polarized and opponents of the Republicans’ conservative positions are demonized, aided in no small part by pugilistic media personalities on television and radio. Gone is the sense of reciprocity, mutual respect, and fair play that should constitute the exchange of ideas in situations of moral disagreement.

Second, they somatized what counts as “moral.” Each of the items I mention on the Republican agenda has to do with the body. To be sure, bodily morality is no small matter. (I want to note in passing how this election reveals the intransigence of American homophobia.) But confining moral issues to matters of sex and medicine crowds out much of what affects the quality of American life. The Republican Party reduced the macro items on my list to economic and political matters, thereby emptying them of real ethical content and turning them into problems that are resolvable solely according to strategic calculations of self-interest and efficiency.

Finally, they psychologized moral issues, turning them into matters of sincerity. In this, they echoed the worst features of identity politics. The Bush administration ignored appeals to empirical reality as a basis for sorting out good arguments from bad, scientific fact from ideological commitment, reality from fantasy, truth from falsehood. Commitment to moral realism and public accountability for policy decisions was replaced by esteem for unwavering conviction, however ill-advised. Frequently we were reminded that the people know where the president stands, what values he holds dear. The effect was to say that what counts as a moral value is entirely subjective, and that a citizen should cast his or her vote for the candidate who appears more deeply earnest in front of a camera.

One of the Republicans’ signature themes going into and coming out of the election was “faith and the family.” But by neglecting social, environmental, and other factors within which families grow and develop, the Republicans distracted the electorate from issues that bear directly on our wider health and well-being. The effect was to sentimentalize the family, underwriting the false picture of families as lifestyle enclaves and havens in a heartless world. But we all know better. Families are not only important institutions for intimacy and psychological development; they are also domestic economies, as any parent who balances the monthly budget surely knows. Each family’s welfare depends on its wider moral, environmental, legal, political, and economic context. Cordoning off the family from these matters of context and political policy does us a great disservice.

It is tempting to wax sanctimonious about each of these strategies and their effects, but I rather think that many of my colleagues in the academy have aided and abetted this decline of critical reasoning and moral inquiry. Captivated by fashionable platitudes about power from the postmodern Left or quaint bromides about tradition by the confessional Right, much work in religion and ethics is characterized by the neglect of empirical detail, a lack of courage for normative debate, or a failure to appreciate basic distinctions that help clarify moral reasoning. A disproportionate amount of what passes as scholarship today suffers from precisely the defects that the Republicans have exploited to their advantage and to the nation’s detriment. All of us who teach religion and ethics in higher education have our work cut out for us over the next four years, and beyond. It is often said that the devil is in the details. Right now, the details seem to be where even angels fear to tread.

Ellen T. Charry, Margaret W. Harmon Associate Professor of Systematic Theology, Princeton Theological Seminary:

It is not only the Democrats who have lost the confidence of the American heartland. So has nonevangelical Christianity. Perhaps the dumbing down of America has enabled shallow thinking about complex social, cultural, and international issues to win the day. Bravado after being attacked on our own soil seems linked in the popular religious mind with a swaggering smugness about sex-related matters. A slick veneer of sexual morality to hide a basically punitive attitude toward those not like us gives the short-thinking Christian voter a self-congratulatory sense of moral superiority. Shame on those Christians whose faith has forgiveness and reconciliation at the core of its identity yet who have betrayed their Lord for such tawdry braggadocio. At the moment, evangelical leaders carry heavy responsibility for the leadership of their community.

As shallow as the avowedly “Christian” electorate appears to be, the Democratic Party and the peace and justice churches should heed the admonition that their interlocked message no longer resonates with a large segment of the American people. This is not to suggest that “liberals” abandon their traditional commitments for the sake of political survival, but that they listen attentively to the rebuff they have received in this election. The temptation of self-righteousness is like the devil who prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour in 1 Peter. It is pathetically tempting to divide the cosmopolitan from the redneck and close one’s ears. Complacency on either side may be comforting, but it is ill-conceived.

Theology cannot be apolitical. Yet how theological commitments translate into political activity in any age is a perennial task. Christians have long debated the proper relationship of the church to the state. Most often Christians have sought to be loyal citizens building up the body politic by supporting marriage, military service, taxes, and the law of the land. Some Christians have vowed withdrawal from the state on the ground that they serve a greater master. It is always important that the administration of any state or the issues of the day never be confused or conflated with the Lord that Christians serve. Sadly, at this point, Christians do not have a monopoly on clarity of mind.

Nancy J. Duff, Stephen Colwell Associate Professor of Christian Ethics, Princeton Theological Seminary:

As a result of President Clinton’s lies about his extramarital affair with a White House intern, he was impeached. His immoral behavior (both the affair and the subsequent lies) dominates many people’s assessment of his presidency. Under President Clinton our nation saw a significant increase in jobs, a strong stock market, a balanced budget, and strong international support for our country, but what is most often remembered about his presidency is his sexual misconduct. When, on the other hand, President Bush lied about the reasons he took the United States to war with Iraq, his immoral behavior (both the war and the lies he told about the war) resulted in no serious setbacks to his presidential authority, and now he has been reelected president for a second term. Why did one kind of immoral behavior (an extramarital affair) bring one president down, while another kind of immoral behavior (going to war on false pretenses) had little effect on the credibility of another?

From an ethical point of view, our country has entered an odd arena where issues regarding the economy, terrorism, war, health care, civil liberties, the creation or loss of jobs, and taking care of the environment are not placed under the category of “moral values.” The term “moral values” has come to refer exclusively to more personal issues such as abortion, homosexuality, and the integrity of marriage (although why these issues are more personal than loss of jobs or access to health care is unclear). How is it that war, poverty, loss of jobs, curtailment of civil liberties, access to health care, and taking care of our natural resources are not also considered serious moral issues?

Like many people who voted against President Bush, I fear for the future of our country. We have a president who believes that a two-percentage-point margin of victory constitutes a “mandate” from the people, and who believes that he has a mandate from God to lead this country, a belief which makes him unable to admit to any mistakes or even have second thoughts about his actions. He lied to the country about Iraq and led us into war with a country that had nothing to do with the terrorist acts of September 11. He tells us that it will take “hard work” to win the war in Iraq, while refusing to allow photographs of the coffins of soldiers whose hard work resulted in the loss of their lives. He has violated people’s civil liberties; his “leave no child behind” program has been a dismal failure; his policies have led to the loss of jobs, increased financial success for the wealthy, and even more limited access to health care for those who were already on the margin. Ironically, none of these actions fall under the category of “moral values” in the minds of many who reelected him.

Since religious beliefs played such a large role in this election, one must examine the influence of conservative evangelical churches in restricting the term “moral values” to such concerns as abortion, homosexuality, prayer in school, and posting the Ten Commandments in public institutions, while denying the designation of “moral values” to such concerns as the economy, health care, the environment, terrorism, and civil liberties. During times of war (such as Vietnam, the Gulf War, and now the war in Iraq) conservatives have been allowed to define what it means to be patriotic. Those of us who are active members of Christian churches, but who define morality in a much broader way than conservative evangelicals do, should ask ourselves if we are now willing to allow conservative evangelicals to define what constitutes moral values.

Election 2004: Values Issues

 

BOB ABERNETHY, anchor: We continue our conversation here about the role of religion and values in the campaign. Michael Cromartie is vice president of the Ethics and Public Policy Center in Washington and also a member of the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom. E. J. Dionne is a columnist for THE WASHINGTON POST, a fellow of the Brookings Institution, and a professor at Georgetown University. Welcome back to both of you.

MICHAEL CROMARTIE (Vice President, Ethics and Public Policy Center): Thank you, Bob.

E. J. DIONNE (Columnist, WASHINGTON POST and Senior Fellow, Brookings Institution): Thank you, Bob.

ABERNETHY: E. J., in the last few weeks it seems that religion in this presidential campaign has become much more prominent than it was earlier. What’s your sense of that?

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Mr. DIONNE: I think in this election, religion has played a much more explicit role. We’ve often had religious figures in politics, religiously oriented candidates — certainly Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton. But I think this time the various traditions in our country are being more explicit in bringing their faith to the public square and having real arguments about what the priorities of religious people should be, whether it be stem cell research and abortion or social justice issues and war and peace. I think everyone is being more explicit this year about that. And I think that’s a useful thing, not only for religious people but also for secular people, because it makes the argument more open.

ABERNETHY: Michael, what did you see?

Mr. CROMARTIE: Well, I agree with E. J. on that. I would just add that I think what’s new about all of this is that post-President Clinton, the Democratic Party has discovered religion and, namely, Senator Kerry has. I mean, if you read columnists and people who have written books about Senator Kerry, religion has not been a big part of his vocabulary when he’s been a senator or running for office in Massachusetts. In the last four or five months, though, however, it has, and I think that his handlers, his advisors have said, “You know, we need to be sure that we don’t forget the religion vote.” And so in that sense I think that you’ve heard a lot from him. He’s been speaking in a lot of churches — a lot more churches than President Bush has been speaking in.

Mr. DIONNE: Well, I think there’s a great tradition of Democratic candidates speaking in African American churches, especially in the weeks before the election. I think that there’s a slightly more charitable way to put the same point Mike made, which is that Kerry always did have this religious interest, but that the Democratic Party has come to realize that if Democrats appear to be hostile to people of faith that is a) a wrong thing to do, I believe, but b) it’s politically foolish. This is the first campaign I’ve seen a campaign button that says “People of Faith for Kerry/Edwards.” That’s a mark of the change that Mike described less charitably, and I would describe more charitably.

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ABERNETHY: But this campaign has become — we are so divided as a country — the tone of it has also become sort of sour, antagonistic, and fearful, each side kind of afraid that the other is going to steal the election. E. J.?

Mr. DIONNE: We’ve got a lot of faith, a little hope, and not much charity in this election. And there is the fear that there will be voter suppression on the Republican side. Republicans talk a lot about fraud, although perhaps it’s my own bias, but I’m more scared of people being deprived of their right to vote. And so, yes, you do have that. The odd thing about the polarization in our country is, I think, you can look at it in two ways. If you look at the sort of far ends — extremely conservative religious people on the one hand and very, very secular people, some of whom are hostile to religion, on the other — then sure, we look entirely divided. But I think there’s a much bigger middle that includes sort of moderately conservative people who understand our tradition of religious freedom, and very liberal people, including secular people, who see a legitimate role for religion. And there’s ambivalence on a lot of these cultural issues, even difficult ones such as abortion and stem cell research. So yes, we are divided but no, I don’t think we are totally torn by a culture war.

ABERNETHY: Michael, we quoted earlier an excerpt from a speech from President Bush this past week, saying that his life is part of a “much bigger story” — his faith has reminded him that his life is part of a “much bigger story.” What does that mean, as you interpret it?

Mr. CROMARTIE: Well, I think depending on where you’re coming from politically, people will try to read it different ways. I read it to say that as President of the United States of America, he and any other president before him or after him is part of a very big story. And that big story is the person who is President of the United States has a duty to protect the citizens, to make sure they are secure, to make sure the laws are just. That’s a big story to be a part of. Also, I think the president has met with some pastors who have reminded him that everybody’s life is significant — that their life is part of a big story. That being the case, I think the president —

ABERNETHY: The story being God’s plan?

Mr. CROMARTIE: For their individual life. Now, by the way, I mean, I think the president would say that. I think if Senator Kerry wins, he can say that also. He can say that “I am part of a larger story.” He wouldn’t be theologically incorrect to do so.

Mr. DIONNE: I think the issue here is that — I mean, what Mike says is true. It’s also true that there are a lot of conservative Christians out there who actually do believe that President Bush is, in some way, part of God’s plan, and they link that explicitly to the positions he has taken. And so I think the president has been very good at using words in his speeches to send messages to those religious communities without necessarily turning off others — the most famous case being the “wonder-working power” of certain programs, which comes straight out of a hymn. Secular people didn’t notice it — it sounded like a nice phrase. Religious people did.

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ABERNETHY: My sense is that underneath everything we’ve been talking about here, the fundamental values, the goals of public policy are matters of pretty much agreement between conservatives and liberals. It’s how you implement them where the differences come. Is that your sense too, Michael?

Mr. CROMARTIE: Well, yes. I think that all conservatives are not the same, and all liberals are not the same, and you can caricature their arguments. But, I think, in general — and I think with this president it’s the case — that we are all concerned about the poor. The questions are, what are the most prudential ways to get to the result that you want without making matters worse? And so there is a disagreement about more government, less government, limited government versus more government programs. And that’s where the differences are. And they are not over the goals; they’re over how best to get to where we want to go.

ABERNETHY: And is that also the case with some of the social issues like gay marriage?

Mr. DIONNE: Well, you know, it’s interesting — there is an argument, for example, among Catholics that has broken out in the last couple of months, where more liberal Catholics are saying, “Look, if one is against abortion, let’s look at what abortion rights were in different administrations.” And more liberal Catholics have said, “Look, the abortion rate went way down under the Clinton administration. It is not just what the law says about abortions, it’s the social conditions you create that might reduce the number of abortions in society.” So I think that’s one example where you are seeing that debate. Then again, this is a case where in certain moments we can talk and sound very much like we agree across these divides. But there are very serious differences about: How do you interpret “just war”? Is the war in Iraq a just war? Is it right to cut back on certain social welfare programs? Is that true to our religious traditions? And those are real arguments, and I think we should have them.

Mr. CROMARTIE: And the same is true, by the way, of abortion and partial-birth abortion. To say that you are personally opposed to abortion, but then you don’t vote to ban partial-birth abortion, to me is what a lot of people who are religiously conservative are concerned about Senator Kerry.

ABERNETHY: And quickly, we were talking about the division, the bitterness, the sourness of the tone of the campaign. Can that be fixed, E. J.?

Mr. DIONNE: I think it’s going to be very hard. I think that it may be a little easier for Senator Kerry, if only because his profile isn’t as fixed in people’s minds. Kerry people are talking about putting Republicans in prominent positions in the administration. I think it’s going to be very difficult. I also think you are going to have a huge fight on each side — liberal against liberal, conservative against conservative — especially on the side that loses this election.

ABERNETHY: Our time is up. I’m sorry. Thanks for today, thanks for the previous conversations, Michael Cromartie, E. J. Dionne.

October 15, 2004: Muslim Voters

 

BOB ABERNETHY, anchor: Now, we continue our special series on religious voting blocs. This week, Muslim voters. No one is sure exactly how many Muslims there are in the U.S. Estimates range from two million to more than six million. In recent years, Muslims have been trying to organize into a political body that can influence elections. But they’ve faced significant challenges, particularly since 9/11. Kim Lawton has our report.

KIM LAWTON: At festivals and meetings across the country this year, Muslims have been hard at work trying to forge a political force to be reckoned with. They’ve organized massive voter registration drives, get-out-the-vote rallies, and political education seminars.

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Concern over civil rights is driving much of the new effort. Muslims feel unfairly targeted by post-9/11 security crackdowns, and their frustration is motivating them to become politically involved, many for the first time. Gulten Ilhan has lived in the U.S. for 22 years. She just became a citizen earlier this year and has already jumped into politics.

GULTEN ILHAN (Muslim Activist): After September 11, a lot of things changed. I don’t like the idea of racial profiling. I don’t like the idea of just being a suspect because you come from a certain religion or a color, or you have a certain name.

LAWTON: But the American Muslim community knows all too well that politics can be full of pitfalls. Prior to the 2000 election, leaders of several Islamic groups banded together in an effort to form an influential, unified voting bloc. They endorsed George W. Bush because of his positions on the Arab-Israeli conflict and civil liberties.

Professor Amaney Jamal teaches politics at Princeton University. She says the majority of American Muslims did vote for Bush in 2000, but that many now feel betrayed by his administration’s antiterrorism policies and by the war with Iraq.

Professor AMANEY JAMAL (Princeton University): They did everything that was expected of good American citizens — to engage the political process, to meet with candidates — and then that democratic process brought in a leader who turned around “against” the community in ways with the civil liberties restrictions and infringements. It really dealt the community a blow.

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LAWTON: Muslim support for Bush plummeted over the last four years. Some Muslims are now actively campaigning against him. At least 40 Muslims were delegates to the Democratic National Convention in Boston. Gulten Ilhan was one of them. She says she was motivated by her faith.

Ms. ILHAN: Islam teaches people that you have to have social justice in the society, regardless of which society you live in. And how can you have social justice if you don’t get involved and work for it and fight for it?

LAWTON: Ilhan is convinced that John Kerry will best represent Muslim values.

Ms. ILHAN: This is the most important election, obviously first but most important election in my life. I will work very hard so Bush goes out, Kerry comes in.

LAWTON: But Bush still has support within the Muslim community. Muhammad Ali Hasan is co-founder of a group called Muslims for Bush, which has a Web site with the same name. He says Muslims can support Bush for bringing liberation and democracy to the Islamic world.

Hasan also praises Bush’s outreach in the Muslim community, particularly his meeting with Muslims in the aftermath of 9/11 and his assertion that Islam is a religion of peace.

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MUHAMMAD ALI HASAN (Muslims for Bush): He didn’t have to do that. I think his poll numbers would have gone up if he had blamed Muslims. It took a lot of character and a lot of morality not to blame Muslims for the attacks of 9/11. And I think just right there Muslims owe a great debt of gratitude toward President Bush.

LAWTON: And Hasan still has faith in Bush over the civil rights issue.

Mr. HASAN: Muslim groups right now have a strong relationship with Bush. No other politician meets with them as frequently as President Bush does. And because of that reason, we are guaranteeing that civil rights issues and concerns are going to get better every single day.

LAWTON: The Bush campaign hasn’t given up on Muslim voters. At this candidates’ forum near Detroit, a Bush-Cheney representative argued that Bush is the pro-Muslim candidate.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN #1: Our government will be and is responsive to this community.

LAWTON: Professor Jamal says such efforts have actually recaptured a measure of support for the president among Muslims.

Prof. JAMAL: They have been longing to be heard in this country, and they feel that Bush is basically extending himself to this community in ways that Kerry has not.

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LAWTON: Although surveys suggest the majority of Muslims still will likely vote for John Kerry, many are frustrated that he hasn’t more directly addressed their issues.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN #2: We would like to help Kerry win. But for us to help Kerry win, we need Kerry to make — acknowledge — to acknowledge that we exist.

LAWTON: Estimates of the actual number of registered Muslim voters vary widely. But they could be pivotal. There are large Muslim populations in key electoral states, particularly Michigan, Ohio, and Florida.

Given their great ethnic and theological diversity, American Muslims have struggled to craft a common political approach. African Americans, who are traditionally Democratic, make up a significant part of the community. Muslims of South Asian, Arab, and African descent tend to be more politically divided.

Leaders in the Muslim community are still on the defensive about their decision to endorse George Bush four years ago. African Americans in particular felt they didn’t have enough say. And there is strong debate over the wisdom of even trying to form a unified voting bloc.

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Professor IHSAN BAGBY (At Islamic Society of North America panel): Our potential of swinging an election is heightened when you have one body voting as one voice.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN #3 (In Audience): Please don’t confuse the issue. Don’t endorse anybody, for God’s sake, because last time when you did it, you messed up.

Prof. JAMAL: If the Muslim community has Muslim-specific issues, like civil liberties, then it really does help to have a Muslim bloc vote. This is the calculation the Muslim community is also making. Let’s say the Muslim community endorses Kerry, and Bush ends up winning the election. Well, then, they lose an ear in government, and that’s not in the interest of the Muslim community. So it comes with a risk.

LAWTON: Muslim leaders say their community has learned a lot of political lessons over the last four years — lessons that have led to a new political maturity.

Prof. JAMAL: It’s more than just about voting for issues. It’s really about being appreciated and being seen as a viable entity in the American political process, an important element, if you may, in the fabric of mainstream American political life.

LAWTON: Because they believe so much is at stake, Muslims across the spectrum say they are determined to make their voices heard, for this election and for the long haul.

I’m Kim Lawton reporting.

Election 2004: Domestic Issues

 

BOB ABERNETHY, anchor: We want to return now to the surprising, extended discussion of religion in this week’s presidential debate. President Bush and Senator Kerry were asked by moderator Bob Schieffer what role faith plays in their policy-making. Here is part of what each candidate said:

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PRESIDENT BUSH: I pray a lot. And I do. And my faith is a very, it’s very personal. I pray for strength. I pray for wisdom. I pray for our troops in harm’s way. I pray for my family. I pray for my little girls. But I’m mindful in a free society that people can worship if they want to or not. You’re equally an American if you choose to worship an Almighty and if you choose not to. If you’re a Christian, Jew or Muslim you’re equally an American. That’s the great thing about America is the right to worship the way you see fit. Prayer and religion sustain me. I receive calmness in the storms of the presidency. … I never want to impose my religion on anybody else. But when I make decisions I stand on principle. And the principles are derived from who I am. I believe we ought to love our neighbor like we love ourself.

SENATOR KERRY: Well, I respect everything that the president has said and certainly respect his faith. I think it’s important and I share it. I think that he just said that freedom is a gift from the Almighty. Everything is a gift from the Almighty. … I was taught that the two greatest commandments are: love the Lord your God with all your mind, your body and your soul; and love your neighbor as yourself. And frankly, I think we have a lot more loving of our neighbor to do in this country and on this planet. … The president and I have a difference of opinion about how we live out our sense of our faith. I talked about it earlier when I talked about the works and faith without works being dead. I think we’ve got a lot more work to do. And as president I will always respect everybody’s right to practice religion as they choose or not to practice, because that’s part of America.

ABERNETHY: With me to talk about what the candidates said about religion — and about other principles underlying the issues — are Michael Cromartie, vice president of the Ethics and Public Policy Center in Washington and a member of the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom. Also, E. J. Dionne of THE WASHINGTON POST, the Brookings Institution, and Georgetown University.

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E. J., let’s begin with that remarkable discussion by the candidates of religion. I don’t think I can remember ever hearing anything like that before.

E. J. DIONNE (Columnist, WASHINGTON POST, and Senior Fellow, Brookings Institution): I don’t either. And I think whether you’re for Bush or for Kerry, it was a remarkable moment in American politics. You heard two views of religion very much rooted in our national tradition. On the one side was President Bush’s view, which was very personal. He talked about the strength and comfort he got from religion. And on Senator Kerry’s side you heard an insistence that religion has important social and political implications. He quoted one of my favorite lines from the scriptures, from the Letter of James, “Faith without works is dead.” That’s a very important teaching to all Christians, particularly in the African-American church among progressive Christians. It’s a good place to begin a political conversation.

ABERNETHY: Michael, what did you hear?

MICHAEL CROMARTIE (Vice President, Ethics and Public Policy Center): Well, it was remarkable, Bob. And it’s clear that the handlers of President Bush and of Senator Kerry are people who have read the polls. And recently, the polls have been telling us that the American people, for some reason, want their candidate for president to be a person of faith — no matter what kind of faith. They just want them to be pious, religious people. And so, if you’re going to appeal to the American public, you’ve got to find a way to speak in a public language that resonates with people religiously, that seems authentic, that’s real, personable, and as E. J. said, ties together both the personal dimension and also what the implications of that are for public policy.

ABERNETHY: And underlying the issues — not only religious beliefs and how you see it from a religious perspective but also philosophical ones — how would you in a few words, Michael, how would you sum up a conservative political philosophy?

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Mr. CROMARTIE: Well, I think that a conservative political philosophy would begin by saying the individual is prior to the state. The state is not the final arbiter of everything. However, a conservative political philosophy would have a strong role for the state. But it would be sort of a limited role, in a strong fashion for the state, if you will. And I don’t mean to sound paradoxical, but it means that the state is there to be a watcherover injustice, and to curb evil and to curb sin, if you will. And so, but the role of state is not therefore to get more expansive and more expansive. And I think the conservative critiques the liberal in this part by saying that the state must not become too big and overly expansive.

ABERNETHY: E. J., what would a progressive American say?

Mr. DIONNE: Well, I think a progressive would assert on the one hand — here I’m not sure [that] there’s a huge difference in principle, that there may be in practice with conservatives — that the individual dignity is inviolable. And so liberals do also begin with the individual. But I think they would also assert that there is a responsibility on the part of the community to empower individuals to lift up the poor, to comfort the afflicted. And that — I think the liberal would say that conservatives talk all the time about original sin and fallen human nature. And the reason that we’ve turned to government to help people — help lift people up — is because we know that none of us individually ever gives enough to the poor, ever does enough. And we turn to government, especially in areas like health care, which is so expensive, to make sure that a lot of people who deserve help are not left out. And I think the core difference between the liberal and the conservative is that the liberal would assert that the government can play a legitimate role without violating the rights of individuals.

ABERNETHY: So how does this play out then, Michael, in particular issues? Pick your issue. How would — where would we see these differences in philosophies, and perhaps in religious interpretation, affecting how the debate is carried out?

Mr. CROMARTIE: Well, the phrase has been overused, but it’s the president’s phrase — is “compassionate conservatism.” And I think what he means there is that the government has a role, has a strong role, but it’s a limited role. He wants to encourage what he calls the opportunity society. He has looked at the social science literature, and there is a lot of it that says some of our most well-intended programs in the War on Poverty actually made matters worse for the poor. And so I think the president and his advisors look at that and they say, “Well, what can we do to not encourage dependency on the government, to not encourage irresponsibility among males?”, because certain programs seem to indicate that they did that. And so I think they would want to say that we’re “pro-poor.” But pro-poor doesn’t mean a government program every time a problem comes up.

Mr. DIONNE: And the War on Poverty is underrated. Head Start is a successful program that the president supports, Medicare is a successful program that the president supports. The Job Corps was a very successful program. I do think that there is a clear history, that yes, government makes mistakes and we have abandoned some government programs. But the government can empower individuals, and you can’t have an ownership society if the poor have no money to own anything. And I think that is again — to go to your question — the core difference between liberals and conservatives. The government has the power to empower individuals and help them move forward and expand their opportunities. The G.I Bill is one of my favorite programs because it combined a sense of personal responsibility to the common weal with the idea that the government can help lift people up.

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ABERNETHY: And how else does the difference in philosophy show up in issues of this campaign, Michael?

Mr. CROMARTIE: Well, I think there would be differences, for instance, on foreign policy. I mean clearly, both candidates want to stop the problem of terrorism in the world. And so there’s differences about how best prudently to do that. And so clearly one candidate is not a pacifist and the other is a just war person. They both believe in the use of force. But there are differences about deciding what the U.S. role in the world is on these questions.

ABERNETHY: Other things, domestic things — the deficit, environmental protection — what else?

Mr. DIONNE: Well, deficit and environmental protection I think both go to the idea of stewardship, that you have a responsibility to the Earth; you also have a responsibility to run your finances in a way that don’t burden the next generation. And I think those two questions are at the heart of this campaign. And obviously you have some very difficult issues — abortion, stem cell research — that move a lot of voters. And that, I think, if we’re honest with ourselves, are morally very difficult and very complicated issues. And you saw those debated, though it was striking that the president didn’t want to say he [would] overturn ROE V. WADE. And I think he understood that there is an ambivalence in the public about abortion.

ABERNETHY: Michael, very quickly?

Mr. CROMARTIE: Well, as the president said, he was not going to apply a litmus test to justices, as Senator Kerry is going to apply.

ABERNETHY: Well, I’m sorry, our time is up. Michael Cromartie and E. J. Dionne. This conversation is the second of three, and the next one will resume in two weeks.