"It doesn't even really read as a stairway when you're
not standing on it and looking at it. I like that. It's
almost like a long, thin wall and the scale kind of disappears.
I like that about it very much."
"...You can feel yourself, your body, kind of measuring
where your foot has to go at each step. You can't ever quite
find a rhythm and it makes you very aware of yourself."
"...It lets me do the kinds of things outside that
I couldn't do if I lived in town, in the city. But it helps
me to have a sense of place and security to go in the studio,
because that's the place where you make yourself insecure."
Is there a story behind the stairs?
How did this work come about?
NAUMAN:
Steven and Nancy Oliver in northern
California commissioned a number of outdoor works on their
property by mostly California artists, or artists that have
been in California. It's a beautiful piece of property in
a hilly little patch of ground above the Russian River. And
when I drove up there to look at the property, as soon as
we came onto the property I thought, "Well, I should just
build a stairway up to their house." And didn't mention that,
but spent some time walking around the property and thinking
about it, and came back and did the same and finally decided
that's what I'd do - build a stairway. I decided the way I'd
do it is to make the tread, thirty inches square, or at least
that's what I ended up with, a thirty-inch square tread. And
the riser would be determined by the slope. So I'd go out
by thirty inches and wherever that met the slope, that would
be the height of the riser. So we got a topographical map
made, figured it out, and it runs six hundred and some feet
of horizontal distance and almost two hundred feet of vertical
distance, but a little under a one-in-three rise. And that's
what this average slope is. So I went ahead and built. I talked
to them about it and they said they were interested. So I
built these 24 steps here [in New Mexico]. I built this so
that I'd have an idea of what the thing would kind of look
like and feel like. And then they came out and looked at it,
and it seemed good, so we went ahead and built it. Theirs
comes out with almost three hundred steps, but again, the
same average slope, so the smallest step is about an inch
and a half and the biggest one is about twenty. That's the
way it worked out on the property there. I was really pleased
with the way it came out. It looks good.
ART:21:
What's the experience of walking
on it like?
NAUMAN:
Of walking on it? It's a lot
of work. A lot more steps. The way the property runs, you
can never see the whole thing at one time. There's enough
up and down as the slope changes. And so that's kind of neat
because you have that ribbon in front of you, unveiling itself,
or becoming exposed as you either go up or down. And there's
some nice views of it as the driveway comes up in an "S" curve.
As you drive up, you see it from one side. And then you can
see up and down it and then see it from another side. It doesn't
even really read as a stairway when you're not standing on
it and looking at it. I like that. It's almost like a long,
thin wall and the scale
kind of disappears. I like that about it very much.
ART:21:
Is there a particular way in
which it works on your body or makes you think about your
body as you walk down it?
NAUMAN:
Because there is no regular rhythm
to going up and down; you have to take each step and watch
it. And so it requires you to pay quite a lot of attention,
even more down than up, because it's a little less comfortable
going down. But nothing is so abrupt that it totally catches
you off guard. But you can feel yourself, your body, kind
of measuring where your foot has to go at each step. You can't
ever quite find a rhythm and it makes you very aware of yourself.
ART:21:
Could you talk about that experience
in relation to some of your other works, such as the corridor
pieces where people can walk down these very narrow hallways?
NAUMAN:
Yes, it's the same, kind of.
You're now a participant in the work. You're very aware as
you walk up or down that your body has to make an adjustment
at each step. And so you have to figure when you can change
your weight and where your foot is going to be placed and
how high you step or how far down you step. And nothing is
so great that you have to struggle with it, but everything
is a little bit of an adjustment. So you're kept a little
off-balance all the time, adjusting yourself.
ART:21:
What makes this stairway a work
of art and not just a bunch of stairs?
NAUMAN:
I guess it's the intention that
changes it from a stairway to a stairway as a work of art.
Because I said so! (LAUGHS)
ART:21:
Did you research the history
of stairs in art and architecture?
NAUMAN:
Well, there are stairs as architecture
that artists have done, and I was aware of those. I did some
research on stairs. I was curious about how traditionally
things were seen, and to try to shift that a little bit. Usually
they're made to be more comfortable, and this was intended
to not be comfortable.
ART:21:
You once made a piece with rats
in a maze, where you were controlling or trying to teach them
how to navigate a maze. Do you see a relationship between
that sort of activity and this work?
NAUMAN:
(LAUGHS) I don't...I don't think
so.
ART:21:
Well, there is a similar interest
it seems, of control and freedom.
NAUMAN:
Yeah.
ART:21:
Wasn't that work called "Learned
Helplessness in Rats?" I guess I see a connection between
rats as subjects of an experiment and your audience, or the
person walking down the steps, as taking part in an experiment
in walking differently.
NAUMAN:
Yeah, I'm hoping people can exercise
a little more choice. And there's no reward at the end of
this one, except getting to the end.
ART:21:
Were you surprised at how well
the work came out in the end? Is it a major concern for you
to make things that look beautiful or are you generally surprised
by it, just letting it happen?
NAUMAN:
I'm surprised when the work
appears beautiful, and very pleased. And I think work can
be very good and very successful without being able to call
it beautiful, although I'm not clear about that. The work
is good when it has a certain completeness, and when it's
got a certain completeness, then it's beautiful. So I'm not
sure how I'm seeing that. But maybe this has more of a traditional
idea of beauty. It's very pleasurable sensation.
ART:21:
Is that what drew you to this
ranch, to living all the way out here in New Mexico - the
beauty of it all?
NAUMAN:
Well, this is a beautiful spot,
right here. And the whole ranch is beautiful. There are some
more beautiful spots than others. There are a couple of major
Indian ruins here. And almost every flat spot on the other
side of the creek has got some sort of site. And when you
go to those places, you know that the Indians knew that they
were beautiful. That's why they went to those spots - they
went to beautiful places. They also went to the places where
there was some water.
ART:21:
Has living in this environment
altered your relationship to how you make work?
NAUMAN:
Well, it lets me do the kinds
of things outside that I couldn't do if I lived in town, in
the city. But it helps me to have a sense of place and security
to go in the studio, because that's the place where you make
yourself insecure. Other than that, I don't think there's
a direct influence on the work. Maybe that's pretty direct,
I don't know....
