"It was very important that my body become a kind of
organic machine of constant movement, doing almost a mechanic
movement with the clay—that constant."
"...The making of the work and the political implications
of the making—how you make things—is part of the
final result of the work."
"I'm thinking a lot about the pots as a space of transportation,
conservation, everyday life, circulation."
"As an artist, when you do something that didn't exist
before or that you never saw before, you need to do it because
you are going to later on be the activator of that."
"The thinking process has many levels and I try to
explore how it is related to the body in many different
ways."
"It should be evident, the brain that did that work.
Not just the hands, not just the mold, not just the physical
and technical aspect of the making."
How did you find the brick factory
in France where you made your clay pieces and why did you
choose to work there?
OROZCO:
I was interested in working
in a brick factory more than a ceramic workshop. I was interested
in the clay used to make bricks. Mortar la cota, kind of porous,
and more massive. I am interested in the weight of my hands
in this clay and the manipulation of a certain amount of clay
in relation to my body against a table and two or three spheres.
So this combination of elements: geometric and organic. Organic—my
hands, my body; and geometric—the table or the spheres.
And mass, which became a mass in movement, eroded by these
forces. Normally when you do pottery you try to make a pot
or something, but you are very much aware of this empty center
space. In this case I was not so interested in the center,
but a mass. That mass is compressed, moved, extended, eroded
by these forces. And for that reason I needed a clay that
was special.
The workshop in France has this. It used to be a brick factory
before and now it's a ceramic workshop. They have these machines
to produce the combination of clay that I need, very fast.
You can almost have a small industry or process.
You can have this mechanically quantity of clay and then my
body can act mechanically. It was very important that my body
become a kind of organic machine of constant movement, doing
almost a mechanic movement with the clay—that constant.
It was an activity that needed some rhythm connected with
the machine producing the clay, bringing it to the table,
and then myself doing it as a constant. So in one day you
can do a whole amount of hours, like a worker doing a mechanical
thing. And for me that was important. Not so much one object,
but more a kind of body machine doing this action with the
clay.
ART:21:
Are you more interested in the
activity of the making or in the end result?
OROZCO:
I don't separate the making and
the final result. I don't separate the two. I think the balance
for me is very important, the balance of the making of something.
This making is part of the final result, is part of the final
end of the story. And that's why, again, the body in action,
the individual in action, in relation with the social space,
the social materials, and economics of these is very important.
At the end you have an object, an installation,
an image, that reflects that relationship between that individual,
the social materials, the social displays, and the connection
between dialogue and the negotiation between private space
and public space in every object. And so, that's why for me,
the making of the work and the political implications of the
making—how you make things—is part of the final
result of the work. That's why, you know, I don't have a studio.
But if I need a factory for something, or a workshop in France
to produce this type of activity, I do it.
ART:21:
What's the impetus for these
pieces? You're thinking of making some work, thinking of clay,
and you have an idea of the result, your goal?
OROZCO:
First, I decide where I would
like to be in terms of geography. That's the first thing.
It's like, well, okay, I want to be by the ocean, or in the
city, or in hot or cold weather, or I would like to be in
the countryside or in the city for that time. And then, also,
at the same time, I'm working on ideas. So I try to add my
ideas to this location wish.
In the case of France I wanted, first, to do this pottery
project. I wanted to use a turn, which I never did before,
and do these interventions with the pots in the turn circulating.
And then I was smashing it with things and then I was doing
other fragmented pots. I was interested in the pots. Then
we found this workshop and the clay that I needed was there.
I choose a place because of the idea, but also because I wanted
to be there in France. If I really wanted to be in Mexico,
I will do it in Mexico, which will be probably a different
thing because of the different conditions of work in Mexico.
At that point I wanted to do it in Europe, and especially
in France. So it's a combination of location and the idea,
and just finding that situation all together to make the work.
But the idea is very important.
ART:21:
So, why pots? It seems so basic.
OROZCO:
It's the space of the pots, lately.
I guess I'm thinking a lot about the pots as a space of transportation,
conservation, everyday life, circulation. And in my work the
idea of all this is very important. Conservation, transportation,
and the idea of roundness has to do with movement and transportation
and circulation. So my interest in the round or in the sphere
and the circle has to do with movement and with erosion and
the tendency of bodies to be round when they have to move,
when they have to be exposed to contact with reality. That's
why I did the "Yielding Stone" which is a plastocene
stone that, when it's rolled, gets the shape and also all
the dust. The contact with reality makes the shape of the
sculpture.
In this case the first idea was to make these pots in which
the turn and the circularity will make this void and this
pot. Of course, they are not exactly pots. They are like plates
or they are just circular platforms in which I act, I do,
I intervene. And then I call them pots because it's easy and
it makes sense and it's pots. But you can also see them as
an abstract
circular platform with movement and interventions. Like planets,
or like disks, or like many other things. And that is a pot.
A pot is a very complex instrument and we see plenty in human
history. And, so again, that can be related with Mexico if
you want, but I think it can be related with Greece and it
can be related with everybody in the world because pottery
is just part of history in general. And that's my interest
in it.
ART:21:
What are you examining when making
each piece? How do you know if it's done?
OROZCO:
You get the brute industrial
piece of clay, which is this square bunch of clay with no
shape but the shape from the machine, then I start to act
on it against the table with the spheres and with my hands.
And with this movement you start to get a dynamic sense of
a body and of this space that is taking some shape. The clay
is a recipient because it's receiving all these action and
all these forces as a mass.
When I feel that it should be ready is a quite subjective
thing. But it's that the shape should represent what just
happened before. And sometimes it doesn't because maybe I
overdid it or maybe there were parts that lost their memory
in the mass. So when I finish to do this action with the clay
I just check around. I move, I walk around and I see that
every face and every part of the mass represents what really
happens with clarity and simplicity. And that when someone
else is going to walk around or is going to take it, they
too can see what really happened. And that's why sometimes
it looks clear and then the piece is finished. Sometimes I
have to do it again. Sometimes I can spend half an hour with
one piece and sometimes the other work is just in five seconds.
But the criteria, more or less, is the work is finished when
it represents what really happens in the action of doing it.
When an object has a logic on its own, it starts to talk of
many other things. It’s not that it represents anything,
but it represents its own reason to exist, in a way, as a
material—as clay, terra cotta, in relation with bricks,
in relation with construction, with pottery, with many things,
and the body. Then it’s representing the movement that
makes the shape. And then it can talk and express other things,
suggest food, look like a fish, or something else. On its
own it has a finish and a reason that somehow justifies that
it exists.
ART:21:
For the viewer that sees the
completed show of these clay works, how are you thinking that
the person will respond? Are you interested in the response?
OROZCO:
Sure. Yes. Art happens in that
space between the spectator and the work. It’s that space
in between that finalizes the work of art. And in the case
of the terra-cotta works, they are especially artistic—on
the one hand very artistic, on the other very hermetic.
But then they were also for me very mysterious. I was trying
something I never did before. When you are doing this you
are doing it for yourself, because you will be a spectator
also. And when you finish this that you are trying, you will
also be in the position of the spectator. And I don't like
the word spectator, because a spectator is a passive word,
and I don't think the spectator should be considered passive.
It should be more like the activator or something like that.
So it's that person who is going to activate that work or
the object or the photograph in their brain and they're going
to start to make it work, make it happen, in terms of memory,
emotions, and etcetera.
As an artist, when you do something that didn't exist before
or that you never saw before, you need to do it because you
are going to later on be the activator of that. I see it for
the first time after I finish, right there fresh. And sometimes
it works and sometimes it doesn't. It's a subjective thing.
Sometimes I let it go even if it doesn't work so much for
me. I say, "Well, let's wait and see, just take it out."
In the case of the clay pieces I am quite easy with them.
I let them go. And I take it quite light in that sense. Just
go on, see what happens.
ART:21:
What happens after you think
a piece is ready?
OROZCO:
After I feel it's ready when
the action is enough in the clay, then I just go for the next.
And then this one goes out and has to dry for two months,
because there's quite a lot of water inside the clay and it's
massive and so it has to dry for a long time. And we fire
the clay with wood. The firing is also hazardous, because
there can be quite a lot of accidents and it can crack the
piece and also the color variation is uncontrollable. That
is nice, too. It really looks like a brick, the different
tonalities. It's a very straightforward process. Classic,
simple. I'm not so interested in colors and finishes. It's
just a regular kind of brick production.
ART:21:
When you installed the show in
the gallery, what decisions were you making?
OROZCO:
In this case I decided to use
market tables that are quite common in Paris. They are wood
panels with metal legs and they use them in the markets outdoors.
So there is the transportation—very flexible, very easy
to move. So I display these tables and on each table I put
one or two pieces. I think this was a nice connection because
some of the pieces look a little bit like food, or bread,
or fish, or a recipient of some kind of food. And then I thought
it was appropriate to have that reference to all these things
in the market. And in the case of the piece in Documenta,
it was altogether a group of forty variations of plates and
pottery. And in this case they were more like single pieces
on tables.
ART:21:
Were those allusions to food
intentional, or did they just happen?
OROZCO:
I think they just happened.
I was not thinking so much when I was doing the work that
it has to look like bread, or it has to look like a fish,
or it has to look like anything. So when I was doing it it
was more subjective, just like doing it in the moment. It
depends also in the firing, with the color and the final shape.
Some of them came out the way they did because firing clay
is a very similar process to how they prepare bread or how
they cook. It's similar—how I manipulate these things
and how people do food and prepare things. So in the end it
looks like that because the process of the movement of the
hand is quite common in many activities. So then you have
this shape. But it was not intentional in terms of imitating,
it was just a consequence of a common logical activity.
ART:21:
Could you talk about the process
of making things with your hands versus a mental thinking
process?
OROZCO:
The thinking process has many
levels and I try to explore how it is related to the body
in many different ways. To be static, to be seated, to be
walking, to be moving, to be looking at the ocean, in a train.
To be working with my hands in a drawing, like a concentrated
field, or in a more expanded field with objects in a situation,
or with the clay and very physical. This all generates a stimulus
in the brain and you are thinking. But the connection between
the brain and the body and the breathing and the sweating
and the time that you spend and how you slow down thinking
or you accelerate thinking is very important for me because
you just generate the different aspects of thinking. I am
interested in all of them. I try to combine them because I
cannot just be thinking statically. And I cannot just be writing.
I like to move and I like to be more physical.
I think in the final result of the piece the thinking process
should be evident. It should be evident, the brain that did
that work. Not just the hands, not just the mold, not just
the physical and technical aspect of the making. It's much
more important that the intellectual aspect of the making
of the work is evident in the final result of the work. I
think that is what is really going to generate the space of
communication when someone looks at something that makes thinking
happen in the receptor. The shape at the end has to do with
provoking the space for thinking.
That's why I'm not so much concerned in words in my work,
because I don't think I need words in the work to generate
thinking. I think you can do it through the objects if the
objects have content and some serious thinking involved. Then
they are quite open to receive new thinking from the visitor.
ART:21:
Was there an underlying order
or relationship to the placement of clay works on the tables?
OROZCO:
No, there wasn't a specific
order. I wanted it so that you can see each one separated
as a single work. So you can walk around and they are on the
table. They were made on a table. So the height and the space
of the table is just the appropriate space and height for
the work, because it's how I was looking at it when I was
manipulating it. And the table is very important in my work
in general. I have these working tables and I work on a table.
And for me the table is this platform of action in which we
do so many things. That is very important in my work.
In the show I did try to make connections with the photographs
that I took in Mali in July. I did this trip to Mali for three
weeks and I took some photographs that are connected with
the work. And they are very different, but there are some
connections like the cemetery of Timbukutu which I found in
the trip. I found this cemetery because I was interested in
the pottery and the ceramics. When I did this trip to Mali
in Africa the reason was to search for ceramics traditions,
to understand, to learn, to enjoy what they do because it's
a great tradition in Mali. And then I discovered this cementery
in Timbuktu.
It's interesting how the work takes you to discover places
that you would never discover if it's not because you were
doing this work. So that connection between what you do and
what you discover afterwards is very interesting. In this
aspect, in the show, you have these tables with these ceramics
on one side. And on the other, on the walls, you have these
photographs of Mali. There isn't a direct connection. But
there is something that is evidently the same person who is
interested in these things. And there are many reasons for
that.
