MOYERS: Time now to look at the campaign through the eyes of our resident curmudgeon, Kevin Phillips.
This is Kevin Phillips's tenth presidential election since he helped Richard Nixon wrestle victory from a hard-fought down-to-the wire race in 1968, an election decided by just 800-thousand votes.
Kevin Phillips went on to gain renown as a political commentator and the best-selling author of books on American history and politics. You'll find them all described on the NOW page at pbs.org.
We're joined now by Katrina vanden Heuvel. She's editor of THE NATION. It's the oldest continually published political weekly in America. And it's enjoying record circulation in this hot political year. This is her first appearance on NOW.
Welcome to you both.
VANDEN HEUVEL: Thank you.
MOYERS: First, a confession. This is not the editorial board of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL, right?
VANDEN HEUVEL: All right.
MOYERS: All right? In fact, I was glad you both came because, Kevin, you spent many years critiquing the Republican Party, and you the Democratic Party from your respective positions. So let's get onto it. What are you gonna be watching for in these next two weeks? What do you think might tip the balance?
PHILLIPS: Well, we're getting state by state now, the closing of the registration books and it's pretty clear. The guesstimate is that between 54 and 56 percent of Americans vote on November 2nd. Now that would be up very substantially from the… slightly over 50 last time.
The last time that we saw turn out jump like that was in 1992 with Ross Perot. And it went from 50 to 55. And if Americans remember, that was an election to de-Bushify Washington. And George, senior…
MOYERS: The first de-Bushify.
PHILLIPS: De-Bushify George one…
MOYERS: The first George. Yeah.
PHILLIPS: And this would be de-Bushifying Bush two.
And it would be enormously important, I think, if we have a big turnout in early November. Because you're never gonna see that for a President whose job approval is 44, 45, 46. That's for a new broom to sweep clean.
MOYERS: So, what do you…
VANDEN HEUVEL: I think one of the important and hopeful things in this election is the number of people who are newly engaged with the electoral process. All of the newly registered voters. I think we need to look at some of the voter suppression efforts.
What's going on in the states. I think we need to look at some of the dirty tricks that are gonna be under the radar of the national media. And that's gonna be very important for local media to attract…
MOYERS: How do you look for that, though? Because they are by nature, dirty tricks. Which means…
VANDEN HEUVEL: Scouts on the ground, people who are newly motivated. You see it in those who are monitoring the voter registration. You see it in sort of the truth squads at the local level.
And I think the character assassination will proceed apace. I think it was interesting in the last debate, "flip- flopper" charge was nowhere to be found. But the "tax and spend liberal," that's gonna be heard you know, out of Bush's mouth.
And then of course the October surprise, which we sit around and sometimes talk about. And how that might play.
MOYERS: Do you think dirty tricks make that much of a difference?
PHILLIPS: Well, what is a dirty trick? Is it a dirty trick to call a Massachusetts liberal a "tax and spend liberal?" I'm sorry. I mean, I spent a long time in American politics.
I don't think that's unfair at all. There are a lot of things you can call a Republicans that aren't unfair. Now if the Democrats don't understand that some of the time you play with a baseball bat. And you just happen to hit somebody's kneecap or something like that. Well then how are they gonna fight the terrorists?
VANDEN HEUVEL: But you look at the Sinclair Broadcast Group. I mean, I think that's where you see the power of media consolidation, and politics, and the toxic combination converge. And that may well play a role.
That is a small factor. But it will, that film attacking Kerry, basically a kind of gussied up, Swift Boat ad, parading as a documentary could play a role in the swing states.
MOYERS: For the sake of the few members of my audience who don't know Sinclair Broadcasting, this is a company that owns 62 television stations in 39 markets reaching a quarter of the American people every day. And here, two weeks before the election, Sinclair's bosses ordered all of those affiliates, including those in the swing states, to carry this propaganda film that goes after John Kerry for opposing the war after he came back from Vietnam.
VANDEN HEUVEL: This Sinclair, as you know, has so much business in front of this federal government. I mean, they have a real stake in the FCC limiting the regulations on cross ownership and markets. You clearly see the kind of business interest in advancing, I would argue, a character assassination documentary. You know?
PHILLIPS: Well, how can it be a character assassination if it's all out in the open?
Now, I'm willing to say I think it's probably an illegal thing. So, it should be fought like that. But to be just horrified? My God. This is a character assassination. This presumably is a second rate broadcast outfit, Sinclair. Nobody's ever heard of…
VANDEN HEUVEL: Well, it has some power.
PHILLIPS: Oh, they might…
MOYERS: It owns more local television stations than any other…
PHILLIPS: Maybe so. But it's not a company that has a reputation in any form. It's just people put together a little empire. So, they wanna play MANCHESTER UNION LEADER, and run this thing the same way a newspaper could. Well, this is a perfect opportunity, if not for Kerry himself, for Edwards, for a whole bunch of Democratic politicians to stand up and say, what your talking about here is illegal. You oughta lose your stations if you do this.
VANDEN HEUVEL: But can…
PHILLIPS: Let's fight.
VANDEN HEUVEL: But listen.
PHILLIPS: But I'd like to see people fight.
VANDEN HEUVEL: Fighting is good. Speaking out is good. But how you get your message out in a media environment where you got two Americas, almost, in the media environment.
You have THE NEW YORK TIMES, you have THE WASHINGTON POST. Then you have talk radio heavily dominated by conservatives. You have local broadcasting, which most Americans who may work two jobs, that's what they're looking at. And you have… they're different universes. You know, so…
PHILLIPS: No, no, not with…
VANDEN HEUVEL: I really think that you could have a message out there in a very key moment just before the election which will be very difficult to counter. Even with all the jugular fighting.
PHILLIPS: I look at it from a different standpoint. Back in the late '60s and '70s, I agree still very much that media were liberal, were against the Republicans.
So, the Republicans didn't sit around whining about it. Should people go out and made speeches. And they attacked them. And you could prove, and I think it was proven a number of times, that there was a liberal bias in the networks and the major papers.
So, people raised the issue. I don't know why the Democrats can't take the Sinclair Broadcasting Company and wring its neck like a chicken.
VANDEN HEUVEL: Listen. One thing they could do is remind people that it was Sinclair which attacked Ted Koppel.
MOYERS: Sinclair would not let its ABC affiliates carry Ted Koppel…
VANDEN HEUVEL: Can you imagine?
MOYERS: …reading the names of the…
VANDEN HEUVEL: …of the fallen.
MOYERS: …American…
PHILLIPS: That's unpatriotic. I think any broadcaster outfit that isn't gonna have a tribute to the names of Americans killed in Iraq should have to take the flag out of their lapels.
Now, that's somebody who grew up as a Republican speaking. But, you know, they don't want the coffins. And they don't want the flag over the coffins.
VANDEN HEUVEL: Well, you know what…
PHILLIPS: They don't like Arlington Cemetery.
VANDEN HEUVEL: But you know why they don't…
PHILLIPS: They don't like Iwo Jima. So, why are they getting away with this?
MOYERS: And you're saying that the Democrats are just kinda rolling over and taking it.
PHILLIPS: Well, if you don't fight, you get an image as people who don't fight. You're not trusted in national security. People wonder when you talk about being tough, whether you ever would be.
And if you can't take a chicken-feed outfit, I know they got 62 stations. Nobody's ever heard of most of these stations. They're probably Fox stations, I don't know.
MOYERS: Well, they're Fox, CBS, and ABC. They're…
PHILLIPS: They have no larger image of anything they've ever done. And the whole notion that you have to take seriously that these are people who sit and, you know, read the First Amendment before breakfast every day and so forth. Let's see the Democrats actually show that they've got some guts and stand up and challenge them directly.
VANDEN HEUVEL: Well, I think you'd argue that the Democrats have, you know, they've started to stand up and fight. Part of it is a political problem, I have to say. I mean, we talked about the conventions.
The Democrats didn't use their convention very well. Because they don't… they do a kind of drive-by politics when it comes to their base. They use that as a form to appeal to the swing voters and the undecideds, the most pampered people in America today. Whereas, the Republicans went for the core, the hardcore.
PHILLIPS: What would Andrew Jackson have done to Sinclair Broadcasting?
MOYERS: I can't say it on the air. This is PBS.
PHILLIPS: They wouldn't be around.
MOYERS: We know what he did to the opponents of the National Bank. Right?
PHILLIPS: Yeah, absolutely. Democrats have gotta relearn these names, you know, Jefferson, Jackson, Bryan, Roosevelt, Truman. And forget this list of Democrats who lost in the last…
MOYERS: Andrew Jackson would do what?
PHILLIPS: Well, he would challenge them to a duel.
MOYERS: Right.
PHILLIPS: He was a tough guy.
MOYERS: Right. So both of you, THE NATION has argued, I think, that Kerry has taken the liberals so for granted that he's allowing Bush to pull him toward his, Bush's, positions. Do you think that's right?
VANDEN HEUVEL: I mean, there's no question we live with a downsized politics of excluded alternatives. And there's no question that our political life has moved more to the center, to the right. Kerry's a liberal on the civilizing issues of these past decades on, you know, the environment, on civil rights, on civil liberties to a large extent.
But on corporate issues, on economic issues, he's very much in this in sync with the center of the Democratic Party which has moved. And on Iraq, though I do think he takes on the NeoCon view that America should have bases over there, which was a point under-reported in the first debate where he said, "You know, they're building 14 bases in Iraq." We will not sustain that.
But he and Bush are talking about winning the war in Iraq. And that is, you know, ths war in Iraq is an occupation. Occupations, if one follows history, are not won.
MOYERS: But you have… you're on the record as saying, you said to one of my colleagues yesterday that on domestic issues, Kerry is to the right of Richard Nixon. And we've got the man who's the authority on Richard Nixon right here. You think that's true?
PHILLIPS: Well, let me put it this way. Whatever you did or didn't say about Richard Nixon, he wasn't tied to corporate America personally. Or as John Kerry is married to the chief dividend collector from Heinz's 57 Varieties. I mean, they have what is it? Five houses? And I think you could really question as to how intensively Kerry would do some of the progressive economics. I think it's perfectly fair to question that.
VANDEN HEUVEL: Oh, I think so, too. But I think it's speaks, again, to this kind of downsized politics and the corporatization of our politics which you speak so eloquently about. I would say with all the disappointments in Kerry, he should speak to his Senate record more because he was someone who led on the Clean Money Reform. And, you know, taking money out of our politics…
MOYERS: That's right.
VANDEN HEUVEL: And this is a bad season for all of those who have been at the forefront of clean money and campaign finance reform.
MOYERS: Tell me about it.
VANDEN HEUVEL: Where that goes coming out of this, I think that is gonna be crucial come November 3rd, the morning after, assuming we don't have a contested election again.
MOYERS: The other thing in people's lives that the polls keep saying is the best cushion that Bush has is their fear… is the fight against terrorism. How do you think that's cutting?
PHILLIPS: Well, it's clear that he has that advantage when it's not stressed by serious explanation. And, there's the fault of the Democrats, because the Democrats have picked up on how porous the border is, and there's a threat there. And, they picked up on container ships coming in, and nobody checks out the containers. So, that the United States in terms of immigration and commercial access is porous and wide open. But, to me the most telling one of all… we've just seen the numbers on the trade deficit, the current account deficit, these huge numbers. The United States is the world's number one debtor, and as these numbers build up each month, it's terrifying.
Because, they are letting national financial security go down the drain. We're at the mercy of people who hold government bonds overseas that hold some of the Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac paper, and we can just be made into fools. And, the vulnerability financially of dumping the American's paper is a tragedy, and that's national security, too.
VANDEN HEUVEL: And, that's what's missing what matters, if you want to tick off some of the things that haven't been discussed in this campaign that speaks to China, and the role of China speaks to the whole issue of the debt. But, I would say on the fear, I used to say that the only thing that this Administration has to fear is the end of fear itself.
And, then you know, I think, but I saw a Cornell study the other day that shows…
MOYERS: Cornell University?
VANDEN HEUVEL: Cornell University study that showed that when the Administration ramped up the terror alert codes that Bush's approval ratings went up, and along with that even the perceptions of his handling of the economy. I think we're gonna see some of that as we have in the past months, and that fierce desire to continue to link 9/11 with a failed war… disastrous war in Iraq is, you know, is very important to this Administration. And, Cheney continues to go out there talking about linking 9/11 and Iraq saying it's an alternative interpretation when it's been demolished…
MOYERS: But, this is the vulnerability on the terrorist side that they are playing to, but I think Kevin is on to something when he talks about this financial vulnerability.
VANDEN HEUVEL: Yes.
MOYERS: Although that doesn't seem to be a great issue to the country at large. Less than 24 hours after the debate, the Federal Government acknowledged in a news story this morning that they have hit the debt ceiling set by Congress, and will have to borrow from the Civil Service Retirement System until after the elections. Now, what does that say to you?
PHILLIPS: Well, what it says is this administration is fiscally irresponsible. There's a bipartisan group, the Concord Coalition people from both administrations, Democratic and Republican. They indict both parties for recklessness.
But, I think, Republican administration for sacrificing the deficit circumstances that were obtained under Clinton, and then they do it with these tax programs, which Kerry's absolutely right, are give aways to the top one percent, and I've written several books about this.
MOYERS: A hundred and thirty-seven billion dollars in tax cuts this week from Congress to the largest corporations in the country.
PHILLIPS: Yes, and then what happens is as we build up more debt private and publicly, the foreign leverage over Americans and our future standard of living, and what happens to the children, and the grandchildren. As Ross Perot very correctly said 12 years ago. I wish he could be back in action.
This is frightening, but let me make one other little point. I mean, I've got some Irish in my family background, and I was always very interested in the terrorism in the British Isles. You know, the British never cancelled any elections, because there was terrorism in Ireland, or threatening to blow up Parliament, and so forth. I mean, it was terror. It was there, and this has happened in other countries, but this Administration is taking advantage of the fact that Americans send very little global historical knowledge, and they are making fear into what Americans osmose in their politics.
And, that is a great mistake for the country, and I think frankly that somebody should call the President on that.
VANDEN HEUVEL: Well, John Kerry did call the President out, in a smart NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE piece where he talked about let us hope that some day we return to a time when terrorism is just a nuisance. Now, he's been attacked seriously by the Bush administration since that…
MOYERS: They turned it to their advantage.
VANDEN HEUVEL: They turned it to their advantage, but what he was really speaking to is that the experience of Europe, of Asia, of Africa, of countries which have experienced terror is one where you manage it. It becomes… it doesn't undermine your values.
It doesn't take over your life, and you don't make it a war, which contributes to the militarization of a society. This is a struggle. This is a fight, which requires all kinds of tools. Kerry spoke smartly, but he didn't do that in the debates, because there's a limitation on the possibilities in those forums.
PHILLIPS: Let me introduce a cynical perspective on Kerry…
MOYERS: No.
VANDEN HEUVEL: Yes. The politics of cynicism.
PHILLIPS: I, well, you know…
VANDEN HEUVEL: No, no of course. It's very… Absolutely.
PHILLIPS: There are quite a few people practice it. I think what he's hoping for is that if he can wind up getting the election without having to say too much, that enough will happen between November and January, that there will be an increased public desire to wash their hands of it. And that would free him to accept less of a fig leaf he would want to discuss.
MOYERS: Well, alright we will see what happens in the next two weeks. And I thank both of you.
VANDEN HEUVEL: Thank you.
MOYERS: Katrina vanden Heuvel, and Kevin Phillips for joining us on NOW.
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