- Coming up next on IGI, a discussion about Cancel Culture and the positive and negative impact it has on creating change in society.

Stay with us.

- [Narrator] KNEA, empowering educators so that educators can empower Kansas students.

- [Narrator] This program is brought to you with support from a Lewis H.Humphreys Charitable Trust and from the friends of KTWU.

(bright music) - Hello, and welcome to IGI.

I'm your host, Le Tiffany Obozele.

I'm sure that many of you have heard about a celebrity or a politician, a public figure or even a friend that has been canceled by society.

Locally and nationally Cancel Culture has come into the spotlight over the past few years, as we found ourselves witnessing the #MeToo movement and the racial injustice that continues to plague our nation.

Canceling someone who has vocalized words and committed acts that are deemed politically incorrect has become a way in which society chooses to deal with groups of people that others feel need to be held accountable for their words or actions.

What are the positives and negatives of canceling someone for their words or actions?

And how effective is Cancel Culture and pushing for change in society?

Let's discuss this further with a group of experts including a couple of young journalists who wrote an expose' last fall detailing the active ties, the namesake of their school district had with the KKK.

Joining me now via Zoom are Chris Crandall, University of Kansas Professor of Psychology and past president for the society for the psychological study of social issues.

Frank Henderson Jr. from the Seaman Board of Education and Tristan Fangman and Madeline Gearhart, Co-Editors-in-Chief for Seaman News, the online student news of Seaman High School.

Thank you all for joining me on IGI for this important discussion.

And Chris, I wanna first start talking with you about Cancel Culture.

Cancel Culture probably means a lot to different people but I wanna see if you can give us a basic definition of what is Cancel Culture and has Cancel Culture always been around?

- Cancel Culture is a fancy name with alliteration.

That is for an old process, which is simply that people are being punished or rejected or ostracized for expressing an attitude that is unpopular.

It's unpopular to the recipient.

It's important to note that Cancel Culture only occurs when you express prejudice or an attitude that's unfavorable, that is disputed.

If I were to say something negative towards rapists or murderers, it's very unlikely I'd be canceled.

If I were to say something negative towards kindergarten teachers or firefighters, it's very unlikely I'd be canceled, but I'm likely to be canceled If I express an attitude, a negative attitude, a prejudice towards an ethnic group, a racial, a religious group, a sexual minority, where there's a lot of cultural dispute about whether or not it's okay to hold that prejudice.

Some people like racial prejudice, some people like sexual minority prejudice, others don't and it's in those disputed areas that Cancel Culture does its most important work where people are defending their beliefs, they're promoting their beliefs, or they're protecting their right as they see it to have negative attitudes towards trans people or Jewish people or racial groups.

- So obviously, we're in a very social media oriented society right now.

We're in the middle of a pandemic and so more and more people are able to get on social media.

How is Cancel Culture as you've just described impacted with the use of social media?

- I think social media makes things worse.

This is probably not a surprise but social media makes it worse in a couple of ways.

One is that it expands the audience for what you say.

It used to be that maybe difficult or racist or sexist language was set backstage hidden just among friends, people who shared your attitudes.

Now, social media, your comments are available to everyone.

And there are some people who are very likely to attack you for that.

So there's a larger audience.

The other change of course, is that the people who are watching you, they don't know you.

They don't have empathy for you.

And so the probability of being hostile or angry or mean or loud or extreme are heightened because of the distance between you and the person who is attacking.

- So knowing that Cancel Culture is in that space where it's not opinions where everybody's sharing them.

And then knowing that social media makes things a little bit worse.

What are some of the positive impacts or some of the negative impacts of Cancel Culture?

Canceling someone for their words Or their actions that used to be in private spaces?

- The benefits and the risks are both gonna be in the eyes of the beholder.

Most Americans do not like overt racist or anti-semitic or anti homophobic speech.

And if you say those things most Americans are going to say, "Good.

"You should be punished.

"You should be held for what you say."

And so what we do as Americans is defend the culture that we believe in and the values that we cherish.

And so saying something racist, for example, is likely to be met with some response.

And that response might be called Cancel Culture by some people and other people will say, "No, you're getting what you deserve."

So some of the positive effects are really defending our values, our culture, what we think is important to believe.

- And you talked about values and things people find important to believe.

How effective do you think Cancel Culture is and pushing forward change in society?

- I can't be too sure, but I do believe that Cancel Culture is one of the borders of activism.

Some people are learning from Cancel Culture that the attitudes that they have, the attitudes that they share are really quite unpopular.

They might discover if they live in a small bubble and social media does create bubbles and people who live in small towns live in bubbles, people who live in neighborhoods, in large towns or with their family, we all live in bubbles of some sort and social media pierces some of those bubbles, it goes across borders.

And so we learn more about what other people around the world or around the country think.

- Thank you, Chris, for really getting the discussion started.

I wanna jump to you Madeline.

Obviously you're in high school right now.

What is Cancel Culture look like in a high school environment?

- Well, I feel like in previous years there wasn't social media to push along that narrative of having issues within the high school.

So whenever there's a problem, or if there's some sort of, when you hear something or a rumor, it can be spread pretty quickly through means of social media and that pushes the emotions.

And so I think everything builds in an instant as opposed to over time.

- Now, Frank, you also bring a different perspective to this show on the school board.

When we're talking about Cancel Culture, we're talking about social media and you hear the term Cancel Culture.

What does that bring in forth for you?

- Thank you Le Tiffany, and as Chris had indicated Cancel Culture is a relatively new term.

And I think a lot of the people in our community, parents, grandparents are not familiar with that term.

And when they hear the term Cancel they automatically assume that that is something that is negative and it's something that is being taken away from them.

So I think what people really need to do is to research and realize Cancel Culture as Chris had explained, has positives and negatives, depends upon what the issue is.

And I think people need to research and understand the issue and then be able to form a position on that particular topic.

- Thank you, Frank.

Now, Chris, I wanna talk back with you a little bit just about identity and Cancel Culture specifically when we're thinking about identity and Cancel Culture, we're talking about maybe people aligning with a certain belief but not speaking out because it doesn't align with tradition or maybe a situation where somebody says, "Hey, I'm not racist."

But then they don't wanna change the name of a school If they find out that that person was an active KKK member because it's the tradition and history of the district.

So how would we include identity and people into this equation?

How has Canceled Culture impacted?

- Well, that's a lot of questions and there's a lot to say, but first, somebody may say that when people are pushing back on Cancel Culture they're often trying to defend their own beliefs, their own value's and their own group.

One of the things that I really enjoyed reading and the responses to Madeline and Tristan's article was a woman who was saying, "This is in the past.

"Why are we dredging up this stuff in the past?"

And this is a nice, what we call a status quo defense.

And what's going on is a person likes the name, likes the way things are and will defend it without addressing the meat of the question.

They won't say, "Well, Frank Seaman was a member of the KKK "and that's a bad thing and we are honoring him."

So what's going on I think is that people are defending their beliefs.

They're defending the boundaries of what their group is and so when you say, "Let's take away Frank Seaman's name from the school."

You're attacking a sense of their tradition, a sense of who they are.

Maybe they went to the school and liked the name, it's the same defense as trying to get rid of the Kansas City Chiefs name.

So what you find, is that the people who are coming up with the defense, the strongest offense, are the people who actually privately share those values.

They wanna believe that maybe being a member of the KKK is not a terrible thing.

Or at least it's not worthy of punishment.

They might say, "Use it, Frank Seaman was expressing free speech attitudes.

"He had a right to his political positions."

And that would be somebody who is defending their own right to have a political position that might be unpopular.

In our research, we find that people defend racist speech as free speech.

Primarily the people who do that are people who have high negative attitudes about race.

So people are often defending their right to speak and defending the right of others to speak what is an unpopular thing.

And when someone is canceled this attacks them.

This attacks their group, this attacks their beliefs and they want to create a safe space for their unpopular attitudes.

- Well, you've talked about Fred Seaman and that takes me to my next part, I wanna talk bout Fred Seaman and the Seaman School District.

I know Madeline interesting you wrote an article for your high school newspaper.

You wrote a couple of them.

And so I'm just curious on the history of this issue and why the issue hadn't been addressed before.

Tristan, could you talk to us a little bit about that?

- Something that is important to know is schools were not integrated by choice.

There were not enough schools in the district or in the area to be segregated.

There were always rumors that Fred Seaman was a Klansman but it was easy to dismiss because of that fact because why would a Klansman allow students of color in the school?

Another thing I wanna emphasize is Fred Seaman was not just a member of the KKK.

He was the Topeka Klan leader, exalted Cyclops.

There were many members of the KKK who would keep their identity a secret But in 1925, Fred Seaman spoke out about his role as an exalted Cyclops to endorse a candidate J E Thomas for the mayoral race.

The mayoral race was the first time Fred Seaman was identified as a KKK member and leader.

And if that race didn't happen and the Klan wasn't trying to use it as a political platform to spread their ideas we might not have ever known that Fred Seaman had any association with the KKK.

- Now, Madeline, have there been previous instances or efforts to disassociate the district from Fred Seaman?

Are you aware of that when you were doing your reporting and your research?

- I wasn't made aware of specific instances where the district specifically was trying to change the name or address Fred Seaman.

I do think that it was a casual rumor that grew over time.

I talked to an alumni the other day from 1971 and he said that this had been a longstanding rumor.

So obviously this wasn't just something that built overnight.

People didn't know how to approach the issue or they just ignored it because they didn't think it was true.

And finally, we have the evidence to prove those points and validify information I guess.

- So we've heard a little bit about the history and the issue, maybe why it hadn't been addressed before and some previous instances and efforts to dissociate.

Now, Frank, obviously you have a school board perspective.

Are you aware if there's ever been any efforts to dissociate the district from Fred Seaman or if anybody else had ever written articles or done reporting or into it?

- Thank you.

First of all, I just want to commend Madelyn and Tristan for their excellent work on this piece of journalism because this is exactly what we want our students to be able to do.

And they're just prime examples of the best of Seaman students.

There hasn't been any formal efforts by the school board or at the district level to disassociate ourselves from Fred seaman.

There's been some discussion as Matt had indicated before and that's happened over probably 50 years but there hasn't been anything until now.

Well, Tristan and Madeline had really brought forth the evidence and have brought it to the forefront.

And now people are beginning to have some active discussion all through the community about what action should be taken or should not be taken.

- So Tristan, Madeline, you both brought Fred Seaman back to light, right?

And so Tristan, I wanna start with you.

What change were you hoping to inspire?

What were you hoping to do when you wrote this article and you started your research?

- Well, Madeline and I's job as journalist was to reveal the information and the evidence to inform the community.

Well, we didn't directly write the article with the intention of a name change.

We did want to spark conversation, empathy and understanding in the community.

- Madeline, hearing what Tristan had to say and sparking conversation and interest and learning to be young journalists and do research.

Do you have anything to add to that?

What change were you hoping to inspire?

What were you hoping to have come about by writing this article?

My main goal in writing this article was to make sure that we dispel the rumor and make sure that this is a validified fact.

We don't want this to continue on without having true information proven.

And now we can address that cloud that's been hanging over us.

- So Madeline, I know one of the things Tristan said was she was hoping to spark conversation.

Have you received opinions from people that support a name change or people that oppose a name change or just commentary to your article in general?

- I would say that we've received a lot of commentary over time.

I've received personal comments from friends and family and people I haven't even known.

When I went researching afterwards a little bit, I came across people within the historical realm who were trying to influence how we went forward a little bit, giving me information, applauding us, criticizing.

There's a lot of different ideas on the spectrum.

- And Tristan, what about you?

Have you received opinions from those that support a name change that oppose a name change that had reactions to the research and the journalism from your article?

- The three most common arguments that I've heard is this is, "Blatantly racist.

"We have to change it.

"Yes, this is bad, but it's too expensive of a change."

And then people saying, "This happened 100 years ago.

"Why does it matter?"

And along with those comments, I also have gotten some backlash of people saying, "Look, what you just did.

"You've opened a can of worms."

But for the most part it's been really positive.

A lot of people congratulating us on writing the article - And Frank again, it's always so nice to have your perspective as a school board member.

What kind of opinions have you received regarding opposing this change?

supporting the change?

What kind of impact has it had on the board?

- Le Tiffany, I have received of course comments from both sides of the issue just as the students had indicated some of the comments they've received.

Some people speak about how expensive it will be.

Some said, "Because it was so long ago, "we shouldn't worry about it."

No one has said, "I support the KKK or support racism."

And then there are some that have some very strong statements.

As a board, we should have already taken care of this from day one that we found out about it.

And then others say, "Well, as a board, don't just up "and change this, "because I wanna say so in this."

Some of the better comments that I've heard were from those individuals that have thought this out and said, "We didn't know any better "but now we need to make the change "because I don't want to go forward "and continue with this "knowing that our leader was a Klansman "and asking students to wear the Jersey "or wear the clothing equipment "with the Klansman name on their clothing."

Others had said, "Because we didn't know any better "we're excused, but now we do know better "and we must take action and do something about this."

So I've heard quite a few comments.

I know people are very interested in discussing it.

Some do not think about the impact of the name upon our current students and those that will be serving in the future.

But many times just thinking about the history and indicate what would make me feel badly because I graduated from Seaman.

So that's why I would not want the name changed.

- And since you're talking about some of the reactions you've received, have you received any backlash or has the school board received any backlash since this article has been printed?

- There's been some criticism.

It's like, "Why are you even spending time and energy "on this topic when there's so many other things "you should be focusing on?

"And we don't want our money wasted "in terms of trying to make a change."

Some folks are pretty critical of even the idea of just discussing it.

- And then Tristan, what about you?

Have you received any backlash since making this article?

- There has been some Facebook comments about the article.

Just saying, "Why do you have to do this?"

But it's been mostly positive and it doesn't phase me.

- And then Madeline certainly last but not least.

Have you received any type of backlash since doing this reporting?

- I would say we've received a lot of comments telling us that we're erasing history, but I prefer to believe that we're just reviving what was already true.

I don't feel like you can really erase history of Fred Seaman after 100 years of having his name over all of the school districts.

- I wanna thank you all for your different opinions.

I'm gonna ask each of you in 30 seconds or less If you could just tell people one thing you want them to know about the topics today?

And we'll start with you, Chris.

- I think the key thing to understand is that what Cancel Culture is, is really a debate about what your values are, what is important to value, empathize.

What speech is important to get out and what speech is harmful?

And if you're considering changing the name of the high school, you have to ask yourself, what is the appropriate value and price of eliminating the value and valuing of a KKK member?

What is that worth to take a Klan leader's name off your high school?

And you have to answer that question to go forward.

- Madeline.

- I just want to say for the most part that I don't feel like we're canceling history.

I think that we're revealing it.

I think all the information is basically out there now.

It's up to the public to interpret it and make their cases and arguments for how they feel about how the district should move forward.

- Tristan.

- Addressing what Chris has said.

What would change if we changed the name?

I don't think anything would change.

We would still have the same teachers teaching the same curriculum, the same building with the same students.

But the only thing that would change is what we stand for as a district.

- Frank.

- Yes, thank you, Le Tiffany.

Since we do have that information out there and available to everyone I urge our community members to dig down inside and determine what's the right thing to do?

What impact do they want to leave?

And in terms of a legacy with Seaman School District?

And make that determination of what's the best thing to do in this situation.

Thank you.

- Well, that's all the time we have for this episode of IGI.

If you have any comments or suggestions for future topics please send us an email at issues@ktwu.org.

If you'd like to view this program again or any previous episodes of IGI, visit us online@watch.ktwu.org.

For IGI, I'm Le Tiffany Obozele and thank you for watching.

(bright music continues) - [Narrator] KNEA empowering educators so that educators can empower Kansas students.

- [Narrator] This program is brought to you with support from the Lewis H. Humphreys Charitable Trust and from the friends of KTWU.