-I was sexually assaulted.

-I was afraid to speak up.

-He grabbed me at work.

-What about due process?

-When you're a star, they let you do it.

-I need to keep my job, so I can't say anything.

-I was afraid to speak up.

-She's a liar.

-All women deserve to be heard.

-Open your eyes.

-What am I supposed to say?

-This has been happening for decades.

-This is "#MeToo, Now What?"

-- a new series examining sexual harassment in America.

-This program is made possible in part I have spent my life amplifying the voices of women who have been silenced and unheard.

The #MeToo movement continues to gain momentum.

But what are men saying and thinking as a tidal wave of accusations hits?

-It is a bit of a witch hunt happening.

-It's not a witch hunt.

It's trying to expose somebody who has been doing this for years.

It's been shielded, masked, hidden, and covered up.

-We're gonna have to figure out, like, what, you know -- There's a -- There's a difference between, you know, patting someone on the butt and rape.

-Some men are angry, fearful, and leading a backlash... -I'm down with #MeToo.

I'm not down with MeCarthyism.

-...while others are afraid to say anything.

Today, the uncomfortable conversations men need to have.

Why are they afraid to talking about it?

-This one scared men more than any of the other ones.

-Do they have the courage to speak up?

-It is important to recognize, if we do speak up, there could be cost to us.

-Are they all complicit?

-Consent is what this is all about, making her say yes.

-With me, Dr. Michael Kimmel, Professor of Sociology and Gender Studies at Stonybrook University... John Fugelsang, radio host, Sirius XM... and Mychal Denzel Smith, author of "Invisible Man Got the Whole World Watching."

I've been working in the women's-rights space for all my life.

And a lot of men do say, "I care about women's rights."

The good guys.

And we talk about the good guys.

Not the predators.

They're the -- "We care about women's rights," all of that.

But, really, I don't believe men have stepped up before this moment of outcry.

Let's take a look at what a man said about that.

-We were raised to look at things -- women in general -- seek, conquer, destroy, move on.

We shouldn't -- And we do it.

We're all guilty.

We'll walk pass the yoga studio, see all the women in yoga pants, and that, for us, is an instant almost invitation without them even saying anything, of us being able to look, whistle, stare, gawk -- almost make them feel like, "You shouldn't be -- You shouldn't be doing this, but since you are, this is how you deserve to be treated."

And as a man, we need to be able to say to each other, "That's your sister, that's your mom, that's your daughter."

-It seems like it's not only a culture of complicity towards, you know, abusing women or violating them.

I mean, the yoga pants?

Really?

I mean, I was shocked about that.

But it also is a culture of immaturity... -Thank you.

-...on how men deal with sexuality and with women, particularly.

Again, let's roll into a tape.

-I guess men always find ways to try and compete with each other and try and one-up each other.

And I think that when you're trying to brag about anything that you can brag about, women included, you just start kind of talking in a really rude and derogative way.

I hate the term "locker-room talk," because it's just term for dudes trying to show each other up.

So they talk about like, "I nailed this girl," or, "I nailed that girl."

One person says, like, "Oh, this one girl's very attractive," "Oh, she's very hot or sexy."

And the other guy's like, "Oh, yeah, I totally nailed her."

And so that starts a conversation, then it's like, essentially, an ember turns into a giant flame of conversation, and that's what locker-room talk is, is one guy starts a small conversation that blows up into a very derogative, disgusting conversation.

But, like, I think that men just get caught up in it.

-This is a conversation among men in which women are a currency, by which I say to them, "You see how awesome I am?

I got her."

And you say, "I'm even awesomer.

I got her."

You are a currency in this conversation.

-But then that means it's about how men value themselves.

If men are competing about how much I have and how much you have, which car, which woman, which house, then it is about how they measure their own value.

-But does that not speak to a core male insecurity?

I mean, you could make the argument that at least in our culture, women are encouraged to explore their feelings, examine their feelings, and engage in self-reflection, whereas "locker-room talk," to me, means any kind of self-examination is weakness.

-Well, let's keep on going.

Take a look at what a young man told me.

-I think a lot of the time, college-aged men believe that they're almost entitled to attention -- giving a girl a compliment and expecting something in return.

I think they're afraid to ask for consent, first and foremost and how to deal with rejection, because a lot of the times, men view rejection as an invitation to just try harder.

-So this is a major disconnect between women and men.

-Right.

-When she's saying no, she actually is really saying no, and he is thinking that he has to be persistent.

-She's saying "Try harder."

-A lot of men I talked with in the research for this show, right, they're saying -- One guy told me, "I grew up all my life being told, 'If I am persistent, persistent, persistent, I will get her.'

I will get the woman I want."

-That's right.

-"And now you are punishing me, the society is punishing me, for my persistent activities," that did entail his abuse of power.

So how do you deal with that?

-What we're saying right now is, we're remaking the entire rule book.

-That's right.

-It is being thrown out.

-Yeah.

-And this is a result of listening to actual women say what their experiences are with this and what makes them uncomfortable, what has violated them, and what is violent.

-Here's the thing.

Yes, I agree.

And a lot of men -- I'm calling them "the good men," right?

How do you answer a guy who says, "I do treat women equally"?

-The first thing about that is to do away with the idea that you're good.

You are socialized, and you are a part of the system, whether you believe yourself to be outside of it or not.

And then, there's the understanding -- As Lauryn Hill said it -- Respect is just the minimum, right?

Like, we're not looking for just respect.

And I think that because people's understanding of respect is so differentiated, like, that because I call my mother on her birthday, I respect women, right?

-This is the problem, right?

-This is it.

-No, because they're doing all these nice things, and -- -Boy, do we set the bar low on that one.

-Right.

Right.

And that's the problem.

-Yes, of course.

-The bar is set so low.

And men don't know that the bar is set low for them.

-Well, let's keep on going into more explorations of what is right and what is wrong.

-It isn't just because we're discriminated against because of sex and sexual assault and all these other things.

But it's microaggressions that also occur.

I had a client who decided that -- He saw me go to the gym every day with my bag, right?

He ended up deciding he was gonna buy me a sports bra.

-Wow.

-He actually got it right.

He got the size right.

That's what was scary.

[ Laughter ] -I'm very intentional about using this example, because one of the criticisms of the #MeToo movement, from men particularly, are saying, "This is all over the spectrum."

It is rape, assault, harassment, and buying a bra, you know?

-That's crossing so many different lines, right?

And I think the problem with men believing that somehow if we talk about all of those things at once, we're saying that they're all the same.

No, women know how to differentiate between all of these different behaviors.

What they're saying, though, is that a lot of those "small behaviors" accumulate and make it so that walking through the world becomes a precarious situation.

The idea that it's altruistic to buy her a sports bra -- Like, "I knew you needed this."

No!

No, absolutely not.

And it's, like, the conversation around street harassment is like, "Oh, I'm just paying compliments to women on the street."

But they're not.

They don't want that.

They want to exist in the world and to be unbothered the same way that you do.

-It is about saying, "These streets are mine."

-Yeah.

"You are an interloper here.

You are invading my space, and I will let you know that."

So, this is not about wanting to get with her.

-Absolutely.

-It's wanting to put her down.

-And, by the way, it's also about owning a piece of her.

It's about stealing a piece of her day that now belongs to you.

-Right.

-Actually, I want to talk about, how do you always blame the woman?

Let's take a look.

Tell me about that.

There is slut shaming.

-Yeah.

So, it's like, as a woman, I was taught to control my sexuality based off of negative stereotypes put on women that are in charge of their own sexuality, and that came across in, you know, "How many boyfriends have you had?

Are you still a virgin?"

and things like that.

-Societally, there's so much shame... on victims.

And, like, something I've experienced myself -- In college, had experiences with assault around -- The only time I've been drunk enough to have memory loss was the first time I had penetrative sex, and it's been hard to figure out how to feel about that, because of what society tells us about, like, whose fault it is.

And it's so -- so messed up, but it's what we receive and hear in so many different ways from, like, our family, from the media.

-That blaming women for being sexually active is consistent.

-Yes.

-Consistent.

Almost every woman I talked with, when she complained, when she went to her superiors, when she went to H.R., they told her, "You're just sexually active.

It's your sexuality."

-I mean, I think consent actually sets a fairly low bar on this.

What we're talking about really is autonomy.

What we're talking about really is agency, desire.

I'm talking about women saying, "Here's what I want."

That's not about consent.

That's about agency and autonomy.

-I agree, but what do men need to be aware of?

-The fact that women have agency.

-Have an agency, okay.

-And it's equal to theirs.

-But, also, you know, we live in this culture that worships female sexuality, fetishizes female sexuality, extols it, and uses female sexuality to sell every kind of product, and then punishes women for the sin of enjoying it.

-That is true.

What was your moment of awakening, whether you've been complacent or even complicit?

-There's not a moment that I'm going to pinpoint and say, like, "Oh, no, now I get it," because that's a process that you're always going through.

There are things that I'm still learning now.

-Yes.

-But there are things that I re-- There are obviously things I regret.

-Right.

-And, like, the idea that as a boy what I understood in the passage into manhood was, like, "Oh, I can -- I should grab all of these girls by the behind," in high school, right?

Like, "And that's what I do."

Or that, at a party, it's not about asking a woman whether or not she wants to dance with me.

It's just running up behind her, and now suddenly we're grinding, and she, like, has no escape route.

Like, that's -- that was the social -- That was what we did.

You know?

-And how did you know that, like, "This is not normal here"?

-You realize that's wrong because you listen to the stories of women telling you, like, how awful of an experience that is.

And it's, like, suddenly -- suddenly that's -- it hits you.

Luckily, it did for me.

It did click.

-This isn't a light switch.

You know?

I turn it on and go, "Okay, now I'm different."

It is a constant process.

But I had the same thing that happened with me.

What I was taught in my locker room was, you know, if she says no, keep going.

You know, if she pushes you away, keep going.

"Don't stop until she hits you," was, in fact, what they told me.

-And for me growing up, you know, well, consent's the point, right?

Consent is what this is all about.

Making her say, "Yes," that's what it's about.

And then you can go grow into a really smug level of complacency, because knowing that you're better than those other guys, that's not helping anyone.

It's realizing, "Oh, yeah, okay."

I might have avoided the same bad behaviors, but when did I stand up to those other men?

Risking a friendship, risking appearing to be the preachy one in the group, risking being kicked out of the pack.

And when was I complicit in silence by thinking, "Well, it's okay.

He might be saying this vulgar stuff, but I don't do that, so I'm better than him."

-And that's when we're all part of the problem is when we don't say -- -And when we do step up, you get marginalized and -- -And you lose friends.

And then, you know what?

-It could cost you.

-It is important to recognize, we understand that if we do speak up, there could be costs to us.

-Yes.

-What we don't tell boys is that if you don't speak up, there will be costs, as well -- the cost of shame, the cost of feeling like you didn't do the right thing.

-There's the cost to the woman involved, right?

-But even -- But also -- But costs to us, as well.

Now we have to stop being Billy Bush.

Now we have to stop saying, "You are so awesome.

Wow.

That's so great."

That's the place where we have to withdraw our assent, our silence, when we see that.

This is what I think happens to men.

We are being asked in the name of our -- of the brotherhood to not see what we've seen and not say anything about what we see, to not challenge each other.

Those are the conversations I think we have to have.

-Let's talk about Aziz Ansari's case for a second.

The comedian who a woman went out with, talked about not a very good experience that she had in a date.

Some people are saying, "Well, he's not a mind-reader.

He was just some bad lover."

But I think it provides a lot more than that.

He's a "good guy" who is a self-proclaimed feminist.

And he still showed a demonstration of insensitivity.

-Reading the account of what happened that night from this pseudonymous Grace, it seems like Aziz was approximating the behavior that he thinks an alpha male should, right?

Of someone in his position as, like, a famous rich man.

-A celebrity.

-And that if you can accept that a man who is supposed to be good still believes this to be a part of himself and a part of what he's -- what his performance is supposed to be, then you have to understand just how deep the socialization goes and how corrosive all of it is.

-One of the things that I have noticed around this conversation is the enormous number of women who have said, "I recognize her story."

-Mm-hmm.

-"Oh, I've been there.

I've been there.

I've been in a place where, you know, I have this existential choice now.

I am not enjoying this.

I don't wanna go on.

You know, I don't know what to do.

I can't get out of it.

I'm just gonna go limp."

You know?

And, to me, that is a moment where we have got to listen to this, because we -- Many of the men have probably been in that situation, too, but we haven't even noticed.

-Well, that's what I'm hearing.

-We don't even notice.

-A lot of men are saying, "We have been in this situation."

-This is why this one scared men more than any of the other ones.

-That's right.

-Exactly.

-Because they can actually see themselves in this.

And then someone is telling them that that was wrong, and no one wants to believe that of themselves.

-Why are they afraid to talking about it?

'Cause a lot of men are, like, "Ooh, we're not gonna touch this."

-They're afraid of breaking their good-guy image, right?

Like, they're afraid -- They're afraid that what they've always viewed as normal, like you're saying, is somehow violent, is somehow a violation of a woman, that they do respect women, though, but this is what sex looks like.

"Isn't that what you're supposed to do?"

-So it's like an understanding of a sexual interaction... -Absolutely.

-...and a complete misunderstanding between woman and man.

-Absolutely.

-Let me say -- Let me just go -- What I think Mychal is saying is that this isn't about a kind of violation.

This isn't about inequality.

This is what sex is.

-For men.

-So this gets to a core thing.

And now we're hearing that all of these women are saying, "That's not -- That's not what sex looks like to me."

-It's not what it should look like.

-Right, right.

And so it seems to me that this is a moment that can be terrifying for us, because we are actually listening to women tell stories of a very different perspective of what we thought was okay.

-And the Aziz Ansari story is a debate that had to happen.

-Yeah.

-It was another aspect of this dynamic that was not addressed.

And good will come from the debate.

-Oh, I think so.

Absolutely.

At the beginning, I listened to the people who said, "It's just a bad date."

And then, as you go deeper and deeper in it, you know, you say, "No, this is not about a bad date.

This is about bad behavior."

And it's actually a very widespread behavior.

-Right.

-Yeah.

-Even if it's just a "bad date," the amount of bad dates that look like that in women's lives is good cause for alarm.

-It's also sex and power, in my opinion.

There's actually a study that says men overestimate the sexual interest of others in power -- when they are in powerful positions and believe that women around them are more attracted to them, actually.

A lot of the men who are accused are confused because they said, "Well, she gave us -- She responded to us."

-Power distorts your vision.

So you think that the people who are really being nice to you because you have power over them really, really like you.

It may simply be that they're subservient, and in that position, they have to pretend to like you or that's part of the role that they have to play.

I think that we don't see how that sense of entitlement that comes with power distorts our vision, and this moment is actually asking us to look with open eyes at the structure of those relationships in a new way.

-So these men who are saying, "Well, she responded to me, actually.

I did not harass her.

I did not cross a line," what would you advise them?

-What men have always understood is that women are part of the spoils of success, right?

You say you get the money and you get the acclaim and the big house and the car and the woman, as if they're an object in that list of things.

-That's right.

-When you enter into a relationship, whether that be professional or platonic or romantic, with other -- with women, with that mind-set, then that's gonna alter your view of every interaction.

-Right.

-Now let's take a look at what one woman told me.

-Well, step one is, flush 'em out.

I don't care.

Even if you think it's a good guy, too bad.

You got to go.

Just flush 'em out, and then just don't let up on them.

Don't let up.

Women don't make this up.

They don't want to put themselves out there.

It's embarrassing, the stuff that's going on.

-She's not unique in what she said.

Actually, more men told me that this is the time to flush 'em out, this is a time of fear.

Men understand fear.

-Mm.

-It's like fear is the way to go about it and let them be afraid of losing everything as the only way to move forward.

-Right now, men only understand fear.

They only understand, like, the -- the most dire consequences of actions, if there are going to be any, and the problem is, there have been zero consequences thus far, and now we're seeing some consequences.

But I don't -- I don't know that that's going to -- that's a long-term solution.

What we're trying to do is get away from a punishment model, and we're trying to get to a preventative model... -That's right.

-...in which these behaviors don't exist in the first place.

-I don't think we make a choice between prevention and retribution for past behaviors.

I think that both are important.

I take a tremendous amount of optimism from the fact that younger men are far, far more gender-equal in their relationships than older men.

There was a survey that I recently saw where they asked 18- to 30-year-old men and then a group of men 60 and over, and they asked them about different behaviors in the workplace.

The three things they said was calling a woman "honey" or "sweetheart," coming up behind them and giving them a neck massage, and telling them that they looked beautiful.

And the 18- to 30-year-olds said, "That's not okay."

Over 60, over 80% of them said that that was perfectly okay.

This is what makes me optimistic in this moment, is that younger people are coming up into the workforce, they're coming, and they know better.

-My wife is a V.P.

of H.R.

at a major tech company.

And she was telling me that, among her colleagues, they were amazed at the giant growth in women coming forward to H.R.

departments in tech and complaining about this as a direct response -- Not to Weinstein.

It was pre-Weinstein.

A direct response to the "Access Hollywood" tape.

-Right.

-This is an area where the corporate world is actually going to lead, not for altruistic reasons but for bottom-line reasons.

Our corporations are realizing that if a V.P.

is accused of offering a quid pro quo harassment scenario or groping someone at the Christmas party, it's easier for us to package them out right now, 'cause if we decide not to engage in some kind of due process, and a year later, there's a similar complaint, it's curtains for us.

-See, I'm a bit cynical about the business world.

Here's my question.

-Oh, me too.

But it is happening.

-But it's happening, but how do we be-- Because H.R.

have actually did the training for "sexual harassment."

In my field interviews, people will say, "We would go to the sexual-harassment training, and then we'd laugh about it the minute it ends."

-Sure, absolutely.

-But in a recent survey, actually, by Lean In, 30% of men are now afraid to work with women or mentor women or be in a working relationship with women.

-Well, grow up.

-Yeah.

-"Afraid to" is different.

Fear is all right.

-A lot of men are saying, "We're afraid to hire women, to be in the same space as women in the work space.

-That's just [bleep].

I know I can't say that on PBS.

But it's [bleep].

-Of course it is.

-The idea that -- -Are they more afraid of a lawsuit?

'Cause... -I mean, this is what we need to address in here.

-This is the thing.

It's the idea, again -- They're saying, "We're walking on eggshells around women now.

We don't know what to do."

And it's like, "Well, women have been walking through fire."

There's a big difference here.

And so, yes, crack those [bleep] eggshells, because you need to be more cautious.

You need to be more attentive to your behavior.

And it's not about casting women out, right?

Like, you're saying that the consequences of this are to cast women out of society because you don't know how to behave around them.

-Right on.

-This is a problem.

This is the entitlement.

-I'm so sorry that thousands of years -- -Exactly.

Exactly.

It's avoiding.

-That's what entitlement sounds like.

-"That this space belongs to me, and I have been allowing you to enter it on the terms in which I have set.

And now you're saying that those terms are unacceptable to you, and so you can go..." -Right.

-"...not my behavior changes."

-Just being able to say that belies your privilege.

Just being able to say, "I'm afraid to hire a woman here.

I don't know if I want to work with women here."

-Because I feel a lot of men are saying, "This is too much," or, "This is becoming a witch hunt."

-You know, we've had millennia of men's sense of entitlement.

So, women have had 25 seconds of speaking their truth, and already men are going, "We've gone too far."

-What do you say to President Trump's recent tweets that this movement -- that people's lives are being shattered and destroyed by the mere allegations?

-Some are false, and some are true.

The context for this that we know empirically is that the percentage of people who actually report sexual assault, rape, sexual harassment, is miniscule compared to the number of women who actually endure it.

So the women who come forward are a small bit of an iceberg of many, many, many people.

That filters up.

When they speak, we now believe them because we know that context.

We know the fact that they represent hundreds of women standing behind them who've had the same thing happen to them.

So it is true that there are false allegations of rape and sexual assaults on college campuses.

That is true.

And just as there are false allegations of robbery and burglary and other sorts of assault.

it hovers in the neighborhood of around 3% to 4%.

And I think that that context is missing from this kind of conversation.

This is not a false equivalence.

-Let's go to the "Now What."

You know, a lot of men are apologizing.

I want to show you what one pastor told me.

-If acknowledgement is the very first step, I think it's appropriate for the #MeToo movement to stay in the acknowledgement phase until they receive some acknowledgement from the people that have perpetrated the violence against people that are crying out.

And I don't think it's happening enough in the church.

I don't think that the most prominent pastors in our country have done a very good job of standing up and saying, "We believe people who are speaking out."

I think they stand up and say half-hearted apologies like, "If you felt hurt by this, I'm sorry for that."

You know?

Not "I'm sorry for what happened to you."

But, "If it was tough, I'm sorry for that, but we're moving on because we have bigger and better things to do."

-I think we have to rethink our behavior, and we have to apologize honestly with -- you know, not defensively.

Not with the, "I'm sorry you were hurt by this," but, "I'm sorry for what I did, choices I made."

And then we have to sit in the silence.

We don't need you -- I think we want you to then say, "And you're forgiven."

And we have to sit with the discomfort that that's not coming.

That's not coming yet.

-What is at stake if men don't change?

-Our very souls.

Our souls are at stake.

We're talking about participating in things that we know are harmful.

That is going to be corrosive.

-Right.

-That is going to eat you alive, and whether or not you care about what happens to other people that are the victims of this, understand that you, as a person, are going to have to live with that.

And at some point, you will feel shame.

No one escapes that.

-And on this note, thank you so much.

-Thank you.

-Thank you.

Next week, a cultural reckoning.

♪♪ ♪♪ -To learn more about this program, please visit pbs.org/MeTooNowWhat.

This episode of "#MeToo, Now What?"

is available for download on iTunes.

Other episodes in the series are also available.

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