READ TRANSCRIPT

BOB FAW, correspondent: This is “coming out day” at Georgetown University in Washington, DC. At this Jesuit institution, three dozen students celebrate homosexual and lesbian lifestyles even though the Catholic Church considers them immoral. Thomas Lloyd is president of Georgetown’s Gay Pride.

THOMAS LLOYD (Student, Georgetown University): By recognizing pride, Georgetown has become more true to its Jesuit values. Commitments to social justice are some of the most important and historically grounded parts of Catholic doctrine.

FAW: But what is sanctioned at one Catholic university is anathema at another: Florida’s Ave Maria University.

JIM TOWEY (President, Ave Maria University): This is a university that’s founded on biblical truth, on scripture, and on the sacramental richness of the Catholic Church.

post01-catholic-college-identity

FAW: At Ave Maria, ninety percent of the one-thousand-member student body are Catholic. Professors pledge to uphold Catholic beliefs. There are worship sites in every dorm, and mass is held three times a day. Its president, Jim Towey, who worked for the Bush administration as director of its faith-based and community initiatives office, also served as legal advisor for the late Mother Teresa. Ave Maria is determined to stay a course from which its president says other Catholic institutions have strayed.

TOWEY: In an age where modernity has attacked the whole idea of objective truth and the whole relativism that you see that’s pervasive in our culture, I guess this university’s not going to be here to be popular; it’s not here to try to please everyone. It’s here to try to be true to itself and its own Catholic identity.

FAW: Georgetown University, renowned for its academic excellence, has a different view of its Catholic identity. All students, though only half of the 7,000 undergraduates are Catholic, are required to take two theology and two philosophy courses.

Mass at Georgetown: “Lord, you are the giver of all good gifts.” “Lord, have mercy.”

post02-catholic-college-identity

FAW: Though students are not required to go to mass, there are many to choose from, and Catholic priests live in each dorm acting as mentors and friends. But Georgetown, which boasts “the largest campus ministry in the world,” also fiercely champions unfettered dialogue.

REV. KEVIN O’BRIEN (Vice President for Mission and Ministry, Georgetown University): What we did 50 years ago to promote our identity does not suffice today because the world is different, and our students and faculty are different. To quote something Father Hesburgh from Notre Dame would often say, “The Catholic university is a place where the church does its thinking.” And if that is to be the case, then we have to permit this free exchange of ideas.

FAW: Georgetown insists that welcoming groups like Gay Pride, even hosting a gay and lesbian center on campus, is part of the Jesuit’s priestly mission.

O’BRIEN: The purpose of the center is not to undermine the church’s teaching. It is a center for education. We try to teach our students and faculty and our alumni about issues of sexuality, of sexual identity and gender. That’s an expression of our Jesuit tradition of cura personalis, caring for each person mind, body, and spirit, in their unique individuality.

post03-catholic-college-identity

FAW: It’s an openness, a kind of tolerance Ave Maria’s president disdains.

TOWEY: They become bastions of relativism where your truth is your truth, my truth is my truth, the Catholic teaching is just one path. That’s not our view, and I feel sorry for those universities. I think they’ve lost their moral bearings, and I think they’ve lost their Catholic identity when they water it down to the point where everything’s true.

FAW: Still, many Georgetown students argue that this Catholic university has found the right mix of scholarship and religious character.

KEVIN SULLIVAN (Student, Georgetown University): I think it’s reaching a great number of students, non-Catholic and Catholic, and helping them to develop, grow in their own faith and figure out really how they can bring their faith into public life.

FAW: On Georgetown’s campus there are, of course, dissenting voices which contend that this university has strayed.

post04-catholic-college-identity

LOUIS CONA (Student, Georgetown University): Is it Catholic enough? I would say no. We have the Knights of Columbus, the Catholic Daughters, there’s all student-run organizations, but the university is not promoting this stuff. We have a mass, but are they teaching you about this stuff? Are they promoting this as an ideal, as a good?

FAW: And you would say no.

CONA: I would say they are a little passive on that.

FAW: Senior Andrew Schilling lives at the Knights of Columbus house just off campus. His letter to the student newspaper opposing same-sex marriage provoked withering criticism of him. Schilling says when Georgetown lets gays and lesbians advocate, Georgetown’s Catholic identity is diluted.

ANDREW SCHILLING (Student, Georgetown University): It’s not so much that Georgetown can’t support homosexuals and treat them with respect and the dignity that they deserve, but it’s rather that the university remains silent about the church’s teaching and position with regard to homosexuality, with regard to human sexuality in general.

FAW: But gay pride activist Thomas Lloyd counters that his faith has been affirmed precisely because Georgetown is Catholic.

post06-catholic-college-identity

LLOYD: I wouldn’t even think about how to reconcile my queer identity with my Catholic faith identity if I hadn’t come to Georgetown. What does it mean to be gay and Catholic? Can those two go together? And my experience at Georgetown with Jesuits and with other people who are Catholic and identify as queer on campus show me that you can.

FAW: On the campus of Ave Maria, a debate on the role about groups opposed to Catholic teachings seems unlikely.

CHRIS AUDINO (Student, Ave Maria University): Take what you want, leave what you don’t: as Catholics we believe that’s not the way faith is meant to be lived.

FAW: Nor do students here feel they’ve been short-changed because they don’t have direct exposure to gay and pro-choice groups permitted on the Georgetown campus.

post07-catholic-college-identity

PAIGE PILARSKI (Student, Ave Maria University): Even though our campus does not have such groups as that, within the classroom, you're talking about these topics in a way that presents, I think, both why do people believe what we believe with regards to abortion or homosexuality, and why do we believe what we believe?

MIKE WATKINS (Student, Ave Maria University): The professors represent their views well, and they present the argument in such a way that is challenging for us as Catholics to engage the argument and try and prove it false.

TOWEY: If a group wanted to be pro-choice, pro-abortion Catholics we would not want to try to endow that group with legitimacy. That’s not in some way curtailing academic freedom. It’s recognizing that academic freedom has limits.

FAW: And many Ave Maria students agree their faith has been strengthened largely because the Catholic identity here is so pervasive.

post08-catholic-college-identity

ELIZABETH ALTOMARI (Student, Ave Maria University): It’s definitely grown. Being able to experience it every day only makes you appreciate it and come to understand it more. Being able to go to mass every day, and being able to go to the chapel only allows you to grow deeper in your faith.

FAW: And fostering that, says Ave Maria’s president, is the true role of a Catholic university.

TOWEY: What’s needed now is a Catholicism rooted in scripture, sacramental in nature, that’s open to engagement with the world without losing its own identity.

FAW: It isn’t easy. Ave Maria to get more students recently slashed tuition. Georgetown policies have prompted harsh criticism and loss of financial support from some alumni; and if the debate now underway at many of the country’s nearly 270 Catholic colleges and universities seems a bit untidy, that’s precisely because it is.

O’BRIEN: That’s where there’s a creative tension to be Catholic and university, and it is. Yes, is it messy sometimes? And is it challenging? Yes. Those same questions that play out in parishes and around family dinner tables, they play out in a university, because we’re all asking the question: what does it mean to be Catholic today?

FAW: Questions reverberating in the world at large and on Catholic campuses.

For Religion & Ethics NewsWeekly this is Bob Faw in Ave Maria, Florida.

Catholic College Identity

What does it mean for a school to be Catholic? “This is a university that’s founded on biblical truth,” says Ave Maria University president Jim Towey. But according to Rev. Kevin O’Brien, vice president for ministry and mission at Georgetown University, “What we did 50 years ago to promote our identity does not suffice today.”

  • cipher

    Ave Maria is evidence that Protestants don’t have a monopoly on fundamentalist ignorance and insanity.

  • Majolica

    You give yourself the perfect name.

  • cipher

    Ooh, ouch.

    Don’t worry. I’ll be in hell soon enough, while you, Jesus and Dubya watch from heaven, pointing and jeering. I’m sure that will give you no end of pleasure.

  • Majolica

    What can you say? Georgetown has decided to abandon Catholic truths taught from its beginnings, and labels that abandonment “dialogue.”

    Ave Maria University is committed to teaching Catholic truth. Of course, some will be bothered by that, precisely because the very notion that there is a “right” – and therefore a “wrong” – is anathema to them, all the more so when they themselves are choosing the “wrong.”

  • Catholic

    Go, Georgetown – leading the way in catholic social thought in our generation. Shifts are coming in the catholic church because of your teachings, students & leaders to come from your university!

  • Todd Cox

    Incredibly proud to be a Georgetown alum.

  • misterheche

    The Cardinal Newman Society recently published the 2014 edition of “The Newman Guide to Choosing a Catholic College.” The Newman Guide is the go to resource on authentically Catholic colleges. Needless to say, Ave Maria makes the list. Georgetown does not.

    Details on the Newman Guide and the list of authentically Catholic colleges can be found here:

    http://www.allhands-ondeck.blogspot.com/2013/10/cardinal-newman-society-publishes-2014.html

  • misterheche

    If the petition noted at the link succeeds, Georgetown will no longer be able to refer to itself as a Catholic university (a designation that ceased to apply to the school a long time ago):

    http://www.cardinalnewmansociety.org/CatholicEducationDaily/DetailsPage/tabid/102/ArticleID/2277/Canon-Law-Case-Against-Georgetown-Submitted-to-Cardinal-Wuerl.aspx

  • misterheche

    From the Father King Society:

    “The Canon Law petition of more than 2,000 Catholics represented by Academy Award winner William Peter Blatty, whose best-selling book and blockbuster film The Exorcist were situated at his alma mater Georgetown University, has now been submitted to the Supreme Pontiff with the guidance and green light of the Archdiocese of Washington.

    The “Petition” asks the Catholic Church to require that Georgetown implement Ex corde Ecclesiae, a papal constitution governing Catholic colleges, and, only as a last possible measure, the removal or suspension of top-ranked Georgetown’s right to call itself Catholic and Jesuit in any of its representations…”

    Details:

    http://www.gupetition.org/

  • Dr. Carpenter

    This is why I wrote my book on this topic.

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1420877089

  • chaneleya

    Well I just don’t understand why you keep trying to make Catholic teachings that have been out there for many years into a modern day celebrate every sin and violation against the Bible religion. Why don’t you just make up your own religion and call it “wannabe Catholic but don’t wan it all, especially the rules I don’t understand and the ones that I can’t easily follow club religion.” What is so wrong with a religious institution that wants to keep it’s Catholic Identity? If Georgetown wants to promote these wannabes, and is missing out on the amazing Catholic Church developments – new roles for the lay members, evangelization, theology of the body – as well as the amazing writings of Pope John Paul II, Benedict, and Francis; not to mention the writings of the saints – Saint Faustina most recently. What a loss for Georgetown.

  • Joe S.

    I heard the priest from Georgetown say how they are looking for how the Church is to fit into the world today. This is where I believe the Catholic faith can makes some mistakes. Though our understanding of God matures throughout the history of the human experience, the truths within the Church’s teachings do not. To try to alter the teachings of the Church to fit into the popular belief of the time is careless. Not everyone will want to accept the truth that the magisterium of the Church, by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, teaches. Because something makes you feel good about yourself doesn’t make it right in the eyes of the Church or God. God has an infinite well of forgiveness, but that is reserved for the repentant. Though Georgetown is recognizing the fact that gay students are part of the student body, I would hope that they would minister to them in the appropriate Catholic manner. It is necessary for gay people to understand that the bonds of sacramental marriage is reserved for a man and a woman. The purpose of marriage for “the good of the spouses AND the procreation and education of children”. Outside of this natural order, it is impossible for two people of the same sex to enjoy a sacramental marriage. The Church in it’s ministry of God’s love understands the agony of those who have same sex attractions. It is the Church’s ministerial responsibility to further remind those with same sex attractions they must live, as all who are unmarried, a life of celibacy. It is furthermore the responsibility of all Roman Catholics to embrace these people and help them in making a life that could be an intolerable celibacy to one of a blessed celibacy. These are not popular words today as we are constantly trying to fit everyone’s wishes of how they want the Church to view how they CHOOSE to live of the world rather than living Christ’s TRUTH in the world.

  • chrisinva

    Right. Leaders like Bill Clinton (GU ’68), who is touring Virginia right now campaigning for “Catholic” Terry McAulliffe, who supports abortion right up to the moment of birth.

    Heckuva job, Georgetown Hoyas!

  • chrisinva

    Our Lady sheds tears for those in Hell, and those dead set on going there.

    And all the saints join her. There is great rejoicing in Heaven for the repentance of one sinner. Wouldn’t you like to be the guest of honor at that party?

  • cipher

    They shed tears in heaven? Then it can’t really be heaven for them, can it?

    You’re at the developmental level of a child.

  • chrisinva

    Thank you! We must “be as children to enter the Kingdom of Heaven”!

    Don’t give up on the good, the true, and the beautiful.

  • Jesuitical

    Majolica, you fall upon the same sword as do so many others. That is the incorrect substituting the word ‘truths’ for the correct word “beliefs There is no dispute regarding whether there is a ‘right’ or a ‘wrong’. There is a dispute with your knowing it.

  • Damian LaPorte

    “Our Lady sheds tears for those in Hell…” Is that a figure of speech, or does it have a basis in Scripture and revelation?

  • TabithaRaised

    You cannot be a “practicing” homosexual/gay and be a “practicing” Catholic. Anymore than a hetro single having sex while unmarried is not practicing their faith. That is not living the Christian life.

    There is one thing to say you can discuss ideas in a university, it is another to live out the ideas flagrantly. Besides that, living out the “idea of being gay” is not up for discussion. It is wrong and always has been for most of society. Those that allowed it in the past, fell.

  • Jesuitical

    A university cannot long remain a university without allowing freedom of thought, free discussion on all subjects whether to ones liking or not. Once a great university disallows such freedoms of discourse it no longer is educating but indoctrinating and slamming beliefs upon its students. That an allowance of varying thought and opinion is upheld, does not mean an endorsement of such opinions. An educated person must have openness of mind to all points of view, be encouraged to think, study, read and determine over rote learning…a catechism is not an encouragement to think for oneself, rather it is a how-to manual and as such does not belong in a university of learning.
    Getting rid of learned professors is a relic, a past legacy. Forbidden books on an Index has been abandoned, so should anathema, heresy, excommunication, withholding the Eucharist as a weapon on dissenting opinion and action. If one wishes Georgetown and like Catholic universities to become seminaries and lose standing among the academic world, become fixed in unchanging dogma, teach Natural Law Philosophy as science, you prefer flocked sheep over education.

  • Jesuitical

    The issue is the conduct of a university to maintain its value as a body of education. That you have an opinion on what is a practicing Catholic, or what is appropriate conduct of a Catholic is not germane to a university or a course of study.

  • Xavier Rynne

    Listen, engage, communicate, learn, discern, debate and reason. Faith seeking understanding-Aquinas, Anselm etc. Not dogma seeking justification.

  • WillS

    But it can be that one does either of those things and still be a practicing Catholic.” It just means they are a sinner too. You don’t stop being a practicing Catholic when you sin, otherwise there are no practicing Catholics.

  • Jesuitical

    …distinguish, discern, delineate, differentiate, debate and then determine.

  • Xavier Rynne

    excellent

  • chrisinva

    Our Lady of Fatima appeared to three children in Portugal in 1917. She asked us to pray the Rosary to prevent another, worse, world war.

    Belief in these visions — and others regarding appearances of Our Lady — are not required to be held by the faithful.

    For more information on Fatima, please see:

    http://www.ewtn.com/fatima/

  • Xavier Rynne

    Don’t be afraid of the world or to be challenged by it. True faith always endures. True faith need not protect itself from challenges, discernment or change. For faith to matter, it must engage, challenge and be challenged. That is what the idea of a university is.

  • Jesuitical

    A primary issue is whether Georgetown is to remain a university. It is not a matter of Church teaching, it is a matter of academic standing and academic freedom. If your personal and primary aim is ‘sin and violation against Bible religion’, your interest is not academia.
    There are no developments in church dogma since the 13th century. Do you advise going to the university teaching based on Aquinas and scholasticism…a time the world was flat, the sun traveled about the earth…a time when ‘pure reason’ of Aristotle was science.
    A must for a university is exchange of ideas, provide new information along with extensive learning of the past, conduct research, challenge old assumptions, To advocate the cementing of feet, mired in ancient myth and superstition, condemn modern thought as sinful, think that physical ailment and disease is caused by sin or that exorcism is modern treatment is a sure method for the closing of a university. Advocating ‘theology of the body’ as science curricula is sure-fire church development of pseudoscience assuring your wish..

  • Jesuitical

    “For faith to matter” it must engage and allow falsification, peer review, demand a test of determining whether what one believes to be true is based on fact…or has any substance to it.

  • Jesuitical

    A tad too late to shed tears for those in hell.

  • Jesuitical

    You fail the course in discernment of what education is…how to teach, what to teach, what learning encompasses by focusing on your personal intent.

  • chrisinva

    “Behold your mother.”

    John 19:27

  • jimmccrea

    I love fairy tales. Do tell more!

  • jimmccrea

    Balderdash. Anyone who quotes from that society forfeits any claim to being objective about anything.

  • Joseph Jaglowicz

    “Our Lady sheds tears for those in Hell…”

    And you know — how?

  • jimmccrea

    I loved your articles from and about Vat II! {;<}}

  • jimmccrea

    Balderdash.

  • Joseph Jaglowicz

    The Cardinal Newman Society???

    I can’t stop laughing :-)

    The good cardinal would be embarrassed.

  • jimmccrea

    Certain Catholics might want to try practicing Christianity, too. Orthotoxy is not Christianity nor is it Catholicism.

  • Joseph Jaglowicz

    Unlike Georgetown, Ave Maria is a graduate-level (read: post-high school) catechetical school.

  • Joseph Jaglowicz

    “God has an infinite well of forgiveness, but…”

    Oops, you’ve unknowingly contradicted yourself.

    Jesus instructed his followers to forgive without limit — and without conditions! If the Son of God is asking such of us, will God not do the same?

    So one of the purposes of marriage is “procreation” of children.

    Tell *that* to couples incapable of conceiving as well as to women past child-bearing age.

  • Joseph Jaglowicz

    “…not required to be held by the faithful.”

    And for good reason!

  • Jesuitical

    Is this your gnostic unveiling of a cryptic and mystical notation known only to you.

  • Jesuitical

    Why would she ask the children to do the praying when she has better contacts.

  • Jesuitical

    “Needless to say”, but undeterred you said it anyway.

  • Cyril J. Carroll

    Chaneleya, I hope that you have been reading many of the comments that Pope Francis has made since he became Pope. Pope Francis seems to be more aware than many conseervative, republican catholics that Jesus Christ is the spirit that we all should be following. You have to remember that Jesus did not discriminate about who was able to listen to him preach. Jesus illustrate with his behavior that we should show mercy, compassion and love for all people, sinners as well. God Bless you and your family and I hope that the Holy Spirit touches you heart and mind.

  • Jesuitical

    You have weighted your ramblings with an excessive number of non sequiturs.

  • Cyril J. Carroll

    I agree with you Willis. Remember, that Pope Francis I announced to the world that he was a sinner. I believe that all human beings are sinners who need to constantly ask God to forgive them for their weakness. Pope Francis recently stated that Jesus is always close to sinners and want to forgive them for their sins.

  • quisutDeusmpc

    I believe that both of these institutions have a contribution to make to the education of their students, to scholarship, to the culture, to society at large and to the Church. There has always been a rich diversity that has perdured in the Church. For every Tertullian querying, for example, in “De praescriptione haereticorum”, “What has Athens to do with Jerusalem?”, there is a St. Augustine teaching that there is no incompatibility between faith and reason. Both present a facet of the truth.

  • quisutDeusmpc

    ooh…watch out….someone’s crossed over the line “into the danger zone”, huh cipher? I bet you use that “ad hominem” on all the people you perceive as beneath your contempt.

  • Catholic identity is golden.

    Can someone please tell me how it is possible that the Jesuit priest in this news video can still be a priest.

  • decipher

    That’s a strange concept of heaven

  • decipher

    Well, he’s right about there being no remorse for hell or the devil. There is none.

  • Jesuitical

    …humility.

  • Jesuitical

    We speak of and address so much of which we know so little…we speak so much, for so long, knowing so little, we can now speak of anything knowing nothing.

  • chrisinva

    Read Hans Jonas on gnosticism and you’ll know the secret answer!

    (and the secret handshake too)

    The Gnostic Religion

    Paperback
    by Hans Jonas
    on Amazon

    (Author)

  • chrisinva

    Nicely pompous, just like the Jebbies.

    Ignoring the inconvenient facts, of course.

    May your students inherit the earth.

  • Jesuitical

    Thank you for taking the time getting to know me, and especially for your words of Christian charity…if you have any facts, kindly state them.

  • misterheche

    Like many on the left, you are resorting to character assassination in order to avoid discussing the issue at hand.

    Your approach is not very effective and is often employed by people who do not feel confident in their own positions.

  • misterheche

    I note you are avoiding the issue and simply engaging in name-calling.

  • misterheche

    Jesus also told the people he encountered to “go and sin no more.”

  • misterheche

    Yikes!!! How many stereotypes can you fit in one comment?

  • misterheche

    Your comment is a strange one given that it was the Catholic Church who invented the modern university and who has fostered and encouraged academic inquiry in a variety of subjects across the centuries (with a few unfortunate exceptions).

    You also seem to have a very utopian idea of academic freedom. There is not a university on the face of the earth that allows complete and total academic freedom. Every nation, society, university has a value system that believes that certain ideas/viewpoints are beyond acceptability. I somehow suspect that your treasured academic freedom would go out the window at any secular university the moment a professor began advocating for genocide or white supremacy. Secular universities have all kinds of subject matter that is not open to discussion, not to mention their ridiculous speech codes that try to ensure that nothing be said that might offend someone on the left. (No such protections for the feeling of those on the right, of course!)

    As for an educated person, they should not have an open mind to all points of view. The whole point of being educated is to be able to discern between truth and falsehood and to reject the latter. There is no virtue in listening to a hateful Nazi expound on his viewpoints.

    The point of a university is to pursue truth. I believe that an orthodox Catholic university (that actually believes there is truth) is far more effective in fostering that search than relativist, secular universities which deny the existence of truth. When truth is pushed aside, indoctrination fills the void. And, there is a lot of indoctrination going on on secular campuses.

  • jimmccrea

    There is no issue worthy of debate.

  • Jesuitical

    yikes indeed, unless this is a tyke site, if truthfulness is a stereotype to you, what would you call your ‘cherry picking’ responses…oh another; the eye of the beholder, whose ox is being gorged. What matters to you; personal slant on objectivity, rendering opinion as fact, or should we stick with the stereotype; like many on the right.
    What matters is an earnest discussion of the issue at hand, which obviates referring to others as ‘avoiding the issue at hand’ or even worse ‘character assassination’, in order to feel confidant in own position….alas.

  • Jesuitical

    Amazing, what is strange is taking a fact that the church instituted the first three universities in the 13th century and determine it invented the modern university. Those early universities took the science of Aristotle and Aquinas, eschewed observation and experiment for ‘pure reason’. We know what that flat world and sun traveling about the earth did for modern science. Alas, we were stuck and continue to be in the grasp of scholasticism and Natural Law philosophy. Fortunately we survived until the scientific revolution of the seventeenth century and on to an Age of Enlightenment which did away with superstition and myth for reason and science. Magical thinking was being replaced, along with the god of the gaps in which knowledge was based primarily on revelation and sacred authority.
    You state as do other Catholic apologist that Christianity was the source of modern science. History states otherwise. Greece and Rome were well on their way to science, as we know it, until the 4th century when Christianity was empowered and became the state religion. The Catholic Church proceeded to systematically eliminate any scintilla of freethinking and all dissenting thought.
    The Dark Ages, 500 to 1500 CE, coincided with the rapid church growth and dominance of Western civilization. Renaissance and Reformation undermined the church’s authority. During that period science not only failed to advance, but science was set back. During the Middle Ages those who wish to engage in science did so in Arabic. Catholic scientist such as Copernicus dare publish only on his death bed, and the world knows well what house arrest did for Galileo
    But, you seem to deal in absolutes, ‘not a university in the world that allows complete and total academic freedom’. Where does that come from. From whence you indulge yourself in arguments with only yourself, putting forth words and resolves not spoken or meant. I especially enjoy your discourse on what an educated person is, only to fall prey to your burlesque example of Nazi ideation.
    You begin well, stating a university is the pursuit of truth, but fail again as you cascade to absurdity of ‘stereotyping’ accusation of relativism on those with differing thought. That one disagrees with you is not manifesting a denial of truth, rather that you are in possession of it. Truth is not pushed aside. Truth is a quest. You dwell in the vacuous realm that you can claim ‘beliefs’ are ‘truths’, and that is education.

  • SisterLea

    As sad as all this is, Jesuitical, it must happen in order for a New Western Catholic Rite to be born of those who refuse to be bound and gagged by fixed unchanging dogma.

  • Jesuitical

    Jesus told the physically afflicted, the ill and diseased to go and sin no more, after casting out demons. One would think that a god-man would know the germ theory, and that disease is not caused by sin.
    But, the church imbued in the constraints of Natural Law Philosophy
    continues to believe in demons and the need to cast them out.

  • Jesuitical

    We are all blessed by the image and likeness of God, which enables us to think and protect freedom of thought, and constantly value the seeking of truth.

  • CatholicGal

    Proud to be an Ave alum! I wouldn’t have gone to Ave if it wasn’t truly Catholic. There is a difference between being Catholic and Catholic in name only. A true Catholic university strives to uphold its Catholic values, not the values of someone else. Because if you stand for nothing, you fall for anything.

  • SisterLea

    YES, All Blessed!

  • Xavier Rynne

    isn’t that what I said?

  • Jesuitical

    …just making sure.

  • misterheche

    He also told the woman accused of adultery to go and sin no more.

    There were no demons in that case.

    If the Church believes in demons, it does so because there are demons.

  • Joseph Jaglowicz

    I feel quite confident in my criticism of the so-called “Cardinal Newman Society”.

  • Joseph Jaglowicz

    Yes, “go and sin no more.”

    And also, “forgive [without limit].”

    Hmmm…….Jesus must have been onto something…….

  • Joseph Jaglowicz

    And the adulteress sinned no more?????

  • misterheche

    Forgiveness is not endorsement.

  • Jesuitical

    misterheche, you do know that the myth of the adulterous woman is found only in John’s gospel. It might come as a surprise to you but the story of the adulterous woman WAS NOT found in the early editions of John’s gospel…strange huh. Even worse, no one known as John wrote that gospel, anywhere from 90 to 120 CE. Earnest scholarship concludes that there were multiple authors and editors of John’s gospel, and the saga of the adulterous woman was woven into it.
    What we do know, there are the many stories of casting out demons from the afflicted and telling them to go and sin no more…basic biology and science.
    In no manner of speaking are the gospels the word of God, only man’s word about God. The gospels were never meant to be historical, only a message written for specified audiences to address a specific purpose. It is fiction, but the moral message ought to be examined and studied…similar to the prayer of Francis of Assisi. The moral prayer of Francis is difficult to top…yet today we all too often see objection by obstruction from those opposing the affordable health care act.

  • TO

    No developments since the 13th Century? So the Seven Ecumenical Councils, philospher’s and theologians like Ignatius, More, Faber, Ligouri, Newman, Adler, Chardin, Chesterton, Congar, and Hildebrand have not lead to any development of doctrine? What about Catholic Sexual Ethics, more was written about sex by JPII than by any other Catholic. None of this happened?

    Universities should be open to argument, but so should those of us in the comboxes. You aren’t building a straw man, you’re building a straw army.

  • Jesuitical

    None, we have learned nothing new since the 13th century…same old. The Council of Trent which began in earnest to correct past abuses ended by becoming even more conservative and entrenched in ancient, unchanging fixed dogma. True that individuals have made their mark on the church or at least attempted to. Sadly, to no avail. We have suffered through the Syllabus of Errors, the Sins of Modernism, and reform of the reform as JPII and BXVI did what ever possible to let the air out of Vatican II. We had the pontifical commission of Vatican II not only relaxing the restriction on birth control but voting to rid them all together. Paul VI caved in, did not have the fortitude to follow the convictions of his own council and the church has been mired in a deleterious impact from Humanae Vitae. So badly steeped in myth that the church disingenuously calls contraception an intrinsic evil. Even worse labels members of its church as objectively disordered. Thus, none of that which you wish to convey upon the educated world has happened. Nothing is learned… ancient superstitions continue as scholasticism and Natural Law Philosophy continue to be taught, The church endorses its superstition in exorcism and believes science is oriented to fighting cosmic battles with the forces of evil. Indeed, nothing new whatsoever, only repetitive mistakes, bullying non-thinking sheep with indoctrinating councils, encyclicals, and how-to manuals called a catechism…no thought allowed, only
    mindless acquiescence.

  • Joseph Jaglowicz

    Who said it is?

    Not me.

  • JTLiuzza

    spoken like a true jesuit heretic. The pillar and bulwark of Truth is the Church, don’t you remember? She knows all the Truth God needs us to know.

  • Baron Kaza

    Uh yes it is, go back to the fish wrap site… suppress the Jesuits

  • Baron Kaza

    He is a false priest….

  • JTLiuzza

    Ignorance of what? What great truth do you possess that those you deride as ignorant do not?

  • Jesuitical

    Truth is a quest for all of us…beware those who claim to be in possession of it. History demonstrates the falsity of your last sentence…your previous two sentences do not fare any better.

  • cipher

    The presence of mind not to live one’s life in thrall to medieval superstitions and not to allow a group of fundamentalists to dictate life’s parameters.

  • Jesuitical

    Do you have any concept of an university, what it attempts, what a learning process entails, its obligation to all students to make available an entire realm of thought…other posts on this thread have attempted to make the explanation.

  • Baron Kaza

    Another liberal who won’t be happy until the mass includes acts of sodomy right on the altar…. Burn the rainbow flag

  • Baron Kaza

    Spoken like a true leftist vermin, “if I don’ t agree there is no debate” It times like this I pray for long brutal civil war where liberals are slaughtered en mass

  • loveroftruth

    If you have to ask yourself, “what does it mean to be Catholic today”?You have definitely lost the Way if in fact you’d ever known Him.

  • Shannon

    When I have kids I hope they go to a place like Ave Maria. That is a place that is truly Catholic. Georgetown has watered down and given way to what is popular, rather than what is right.

  • mcasey7

    While I support Georgetown’s approach over Ave’s, they have different missions. I think of Catholic colleges like religious orders: same ultimate goal, very different approaches, all legit if bringing people to the Gospel. Imagine Cardinal Dolan as a Carthusian. Total disaster! But both have their place in the Church, both guided by God to their unique vocations. Same with G’town and Ave. Peace.

  • jimmccrea

    I do hope you gargle with lye before receiving the Eucharist in that mouth!

  • Bob

    The Bible in the original languages does not mince words when it comes to sodomy. It is testimony to how far this nation and colleges claiming Roman Catholic identity have fallen that sodomy is encouraged by Georgetown as in this PBS presentation. In my view this is not a loving act on the part of Georgetown to those who are afflicted by so called same sex genital attraction.

    Our current president – the greatest promoter of abortion in the world right now – was invited to spoke at a Catholic university named after the Blessed Mother of Jesus Christ, Notre Dame. This is a matter of shame for that university.

    The laws of God cannot be changed because humanity did not make them – God did (See Phillip Reif: “Sacred Order/Social Order”, volume 1). Within the framework of God’s law there is grace for sinners who ask for forgiveness having broken God’s law. But for those who sin with a high hand? For them there is judgement. We like the word choice today. With choice comes responsibility. These are not my thoughts but those of the Bible. And for those who would like to stamp out the Bible … it has been tired before without success. God’s word will not be stamped out or broken with impunity because He will see that it is not. It is God’s universe not ours.

  • Tony Mandile

    I feel very sorry for Georgetown.

  • NickD

    Jesus claimed to be It…not to have it, but to BE it. Should I be wary of Him?

  • Ruben Aguilar

    It was disconcerting that the young man, a gay rights activist, from Georgetown, as paraphrased by the reporter believes that his faith has been affirmed. It would be great if that affirmation was helping him change his way of life, but it appears that it is helping entrench him in his publicly confessed sin.

  • Jesuitical

    Never would I imply or even infer that Jesus is not the Truth. If you might note my reference to the post above mine was the ‘Church’.
    Regarding Jesus ‘claimed to be it’, Jesus never wrote a word nor did any of the apostles. So, we in ‘truth’ do not know what Jesus claimed. The gospels are not the word of God. God did not write a book either. The gospels are the word of man, conveying man’s opinion of God. We also do not know the authors of the canonical gospels, and it is considered that there were multiple authors and editors. That is the reason a university, what this thread elicits, is all about. A universities mandate is not only to educate, but also itself to conduct research, in an endless pursuit of knowledge. If your are not prone to ‘openness’ you are not prone to education. Earnest scholarship demands an acceptance of findings independent of your liking. Education is not a wish; it is not a catechism either. What you should make you ‘WARY’ is a closed unthinking mind… anything which requires you to accede your will and mind like unto any sheep.

  • Joseph Jaglowicz

    ?????????????????????????????

  • james connolly

    “For the time is coming when people will not endure sound
    teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit
    their own likings.” (2
    Timothy 4:3)

  • JOSE JOE

    100 YEARS FROM NOW I WONDER WHAT YOU WILL HAVE TO SAY- THE GATES ARE NARROW YOUR GATE IS REAL WIDE

  • Joseph Jaglowicz

    I trust I won’t be inhabiting this mortal earth “100 years from now”. How do you explain Mt 21:31?

  • Derek

    I graduated from Loyola University Chicago two years ago, and it’s even worse than Georgetown! The administration didn’t even allow Knights of Columbus on campus while I was there because the they deemed it “too exclusive”. We were lucky enough to be able to run a Knights council out of the undergraduate seminary across the street, but I still felt bitter that we weren’t allowed to advertise at Masses on Loyola’s campus. Why do Jesuit universities sometimes try to make Catholic students feel left out on their own campus? For what it’s worth, I met several Jesuit novices at Loyola and they were much more pro-Catholic than their superiors. I’m praying that there will be enough of them to overcome the anti-Catholic crowd at the top of the order.

  • Joseph Jaglowicz

    The only concept held by our barren Baron is darkness: Hard to “see the light” while hiding under a rock :-)
    Perhaps our Baron is a product of Ave Maria U?

  • Derek

    The four Gospels are still the only thing we have about Jesus’ life. You can make all the claims you want about how the Gospels are all fake, Jesus didn’t perform miracles, didn’t give certain sermons, didn’t rise from the dead, etc., but we only have the Gospels to rely on. It’s as good as it’s going to get. And if you don’t believe the Church was given to us by God, then no amount of information you hear from Her will ever cause you to change your mind.

  • Derek

    Are you a Christian? You stated in another comment that the Gospels (and Bible) are all mens’ opinions. What do you know about ‘Christian charity’, and does it look like ‘secular politeness’?

  • Derek

    Dude, you must really feel a need to make your opinions known. This world is going to do just fine without your negative input. So take your own advice, and keep quiet about what little you actually know.

  • Derek

    Your comment is logically flawed. “Only those who quote from other sources are objective”. You must see the contradiction.

  • Derek

    Many professors see their jobs as political-liberation rather than truth-seeking. Take a look at your own comments, for instance.

  • Derek

    You seem like another Relativist telling a Christian what ‘Truth’ is all about. Please tell me how that works in your own reality?

  • Derek

    You’re making up lies. The Church does not call any members ‘intrinsically disordered’ (unless you mean that we are all disordered in that we all sin, but I doubt that’s what you mean), the Church states that homosexual *acts* are intrinsically disordered. Please, if you detest Church teaching, at least hate on the actual teaching and not whatever you make up.

  • Derek

    The type of sin most modern secularists commit, they won’t even recognize as sin. They don’t believe they need forgiveness since they believe that sin is just superstition. Sins are meant to be forgiven only after they’ve asked for forgiveness from a priest and done their penance, so why do they need my forgiveness if it’s really God’s they should be seeking?

  • Derek

    So Jesus didn’t cast out demons, even though everyone there saw him cleanse the afflicted man of his physical illness and his demons? How do you spin this one? Did Jesus have some 20th century antidote that only he knew about? Unlikely.

  • Derek

    Well, I’m certainly glad you brought the ACA into this discussion, since I’m sure that’s what everyone was already thinking about. Also, how have the Republicans obstructed this law? Everything is moving forward as specified in the law itself, so it’s only failing due to it’s own inconsistencies and aspects that failed to account for human nature. It’s interesting, but you must have drunk the MSNBC kool-aid.

  • Derek

    So you believe in Truth? Do you believe human beings can know the Truth? If you say ‘No’ to either of those questions, then you have nothing to add to any philosophical or theological discussion again since, according to your own logical, it would all be in vain.

  • Derek

    I don’t receive the Eucharist when I have mortal sin on my soul. I always thought receiving the Eucharist is what is meant by “practicing Catholic”, though you seem to mean something else.

  • Derek

    It doesn’t matter if a couple has been deemed by their doctors as ‘unable to conceive’ or medically too old to bear children. As long as they are open to the possibility of life when they have sex, it is not a sinful act. The Church references the story of Abraham and Sarah (in their 90s when they conceived) with regard to this teaching. However, this excludes anal and oral sex, and couples who contracept. And in the future, please do not compare loving couples who may not be able to conceive to couples who live in sin and purposely stop Life from entering into the world. It’s offensive to the pro-life couple.

  • Derek

    He’s protected by the Jesuit order. If you are distraught, Google ‘Jesuit order decline’ and you’ll see that very few men are entering their order, even though there has been an uptick in priestly vocations since the mid-1990s. In fact, if you click the link I posted at the end of this comment you can see a chart that shows in 1965 there were about 36,000 Jesuits in the order. By 2010, that number fell to roughly 18,000. The order has been cut in half, and the average age of a Jesuit priest is now 70 years old, which means that the next 20 years may see that 18,000 number fall to 8K-10K. If the order no longer teaches Catholic teaching then it deserves to vanish from the earth. The only bright spot for the order right now is Pope Francis and Fr. James Martin who knows how to sell a lot of books. Check out the link: http://nineteensixty-four.blogspot.com/2011/02/changing-jesuit-geography.html

  • Derek

    Agreed!!

  • Derek

    So you believe in Truth? Do you believe human beings can know the Truth? If you say ‘No’ to either of those questions, then you have nothing to add to any philosophical or theological discussion ever again since, according to your own logical, it would all be in vain.

  • Derek

    For any distraught Catholics, Google ‘Jesuit order decline’ and you’ll see that very few men are entering their order, even though there has been an uptick in priestly vocations since the mid-1990s. In fact, if you click the link I posted at the end of this comment you can see a chart that shows in 1965 there were about 36,000 Jesuits. By 2010, that number fell to roughly 18,000. The order has been cut in half, and the average age of a Jesuit priest is now 70 years old, which means that the next 20 years may see that 18,000 number fall to around 8K-10K unless there is a big vocational push. If the order no longer upholds Catholic teaching (and in many cases, advocates for immorality) then it deserves to vanish from the earth. About the only bright spot for the order right now is Pope Francis. Check out the chart here: http://nineteensixty-four.blogspot.com/2011/02/changing-jesuit-geography.html

  • WillS

    So, what did you do to “erase” the mortal sin from your soul so you could go back to receiving communion? We can all get back into grace and receive communion. And, if you really don’t believe that you’ve committed a mortal sin, after examining your conscience with the full weight of all available resources (church teaching, informed conscience and your relationship with God), then who are we to judge? You don’t know the circumstance, you are judging a theoretical decision in this case.

  • Derek

    Priestly Confession and penance. And it was definitely a mortal sin, as defined by the Church (not my own “discernment”).

  • Jesuitical

    You are quite correct that the ‘Gospels are still the only thing we have….’ We have no corroboration from any outside sources. I do not entertain the gospels as fake since whoever the authors were none of them wrote intending to write a gospel…so no intention for deceit noted. Thus the authors with no claim to write history, wrote to specified audiences. The four names were assigned to them They are forgeries only in the sense that no Matthew, Mark, Luke or John wrote them.
    What matters to me is objective reality. God never wrote a book. Jesus did not know what a church was, He went to the temple, as did the apostles.

  • Jesuitical

    Unless you have taken a nap alongside Rip Van Winkle and have been away for awhile. The bishops and other hierarchs for some time have referred to homosexuals as ‘objectively disordered’, and the homosexual acts as ‘intrinsically evil’…with all the clamor and arisen disdain at such an ad hominem approach the church has attempted to wiggle from such verbal abuse, denying that it has called any individual such thing.
    Your nastiness in your post above, as well as your other posts does nothing to enhance what you imply. It would serve you better to address any issue with a cogent reply solely to the message.

  • Jesuitical

    Since you have been on a rage, I am not sure that it is possible for you to address the message rather than what you think it says. All responses have a theme, an issue and a point to be made. That point is that ‘physical affliction, disease are not caused by ‘sin’. The cure is NOT to ‘cast out demons’ and say for follow up care ‘go and sin no more’. You would think that a god-man would know what we know in today’s medicine.

  • jimmccrea

    Nope. I simply recognize the intellectual prostitution of the misnamed Cdl. Newman Society.

  • jcsmitty

    You already have secular universities. A Catholic University should live up to its name.or remove “Catholic” from its description.

  • tom

    I believe the statement about Andrew Shilling’s letter to the student newspaper says it all. Earlier we hear Kevin O”Brien telling us how the university is where the Church thinks and we must protect the free exchange of ideas, but when Andrew supports the traditional Catholic understanding of sexual relationships he receives withering criticism. Where is the tolerance O’Brien is so fond of endorsing? That of course is a rhetorical question because the facts are there is no room for tolerance of opposing view points when they go against the radical agenda of the gay lobby. In reality we are all sinners: the fornicating heterosexual and actively homosexual alike, the only difference is we don’t hear sexually active heterosexuals clamoring that the Church discriminates against them and must change It’s teaching so they can feel better about themselves. The Catholic Church, unlike many institutions, religious or not, is open to everybody that wishes to practice the Faith. All you have to do is try your best and celebrate the Sacrament of Reconciliation when you fall short, no one is interested in judging you, or the state of your soul. As Jesus told us we will be judged by our own conscience, so if yours is bothering you, maybe a behavior modification is in order, rather than a change in the Truth (and there is an absolute Truth), which is the cause of our angst. God’s blessing to all!

  • jcsmitty

    John who wrote the fourth gospel, was the “Beloved” apostle of Jesus. Matthew was an apostle as well. Mark was a disciple of St. Peter, who probably wrote his gospel based on what Peter told him. Only Luke is known not to have been an apostle of Jesus, yet was a contemporary of the apostles and may well have been a disciple of Christ.

  • jcsmitty

    Not true. We have not only the gospels, but the writings of Pagans and Jews of the time who testified to Jesus and his influence. There were ,more than 500 witnesses who saw Christ risen from the dead! Christ suffered and died for each one of us, including Jesuitical, yet many who he died for will reject him and his sacrifice. No wonder he was sorrowful unto death!

  • jcsmitty

    Wrong. Again, we have more than the gospels, the epistles, etc. Historians of the time wrote about Jesus of Nazareth, including pagans and Jews. All of Christ’s apostle except for St. John were martyred while preaching Christ crucified and risen. Who would die for a myth? St. John died a natural death after numerous attempts to kill him failed. The first 20 or so popes who followed St Peter were also martyrs to the faith. It’s true that Jesus Christ walked this earth, but it’s true whether you believe it or not.

  • jcsmitty

    Georgetown is leading many astray. I can’t figure why so many heretical Catholics belong to the Jesuit order, but somewhere along the way–whether through liberation theology or some such–Jesuits have become infected by the culture of death and secularism. Pope Francis is a rarity, it would seem. St. Ignatius of Loyola, pray for the conversion of your order!

  • Thomas

    As sure as Christ promised that his Church will last to the end of time. BTW, your two central questions, a) Do you believe in truth? and b) Do you believe we can know it? were never answered.

  • Jesuitical

    jcsmitty, it is not in dispute who John, Matthew, Mark or Luke were.. The issue is that no apostle wrote anything. The apostles spoke Aramaic, the gospels were written in Greek. Further the apostles were illiterate and wrote nothing.

  • Jesuitical

    Sorry, smitty, outside of the gospels Jesus is hardly mentioned at all by the available historians. Peter was never a pope, let alone a bishop. The only time Peter went to Rome he was executed. Peter was a go between from James, leader of the early church, to Paul. Paul had little regard for Peter. The first pope as we now know them was Leo, the great. There is little doubt that Jesus existed. What is doubtful is what you believe to be true.

  • Baron Kaza

    You are right about that, nothing wrong watching liberals burn

  • Baron Kaza

    Actually a product of Jesuit Fordham… long live darkness until gays burn in Hell….and the wiping out of the progressive Catholics…

  • jcsmitty

    Josephus, a Jewish historian, mentions Jesus. The apostles may have spoken Aramaic (which is very similar to Hebrew) but scholars disagree over the original language used to write the early gospels, particularly Matthew, which were written in Aramaic and then translated to Greek, the international language of the time. (Luke, a gentile, did write in Greek.) Peter was the head of the apostles and the church, and his successors (popes) can be traced back to him in an unbroken line. The word “pope” derives from the Latin for “father” so, of course, it is not specifically used in the bible. Neither is the word “trinity,” but Christians believe in Father, Son and Holy Spirit. You are the first person I know of who has ever claimed the first pope was Leo the Great. Good grief, Leo wasn’t even pope until 440-461 AD. How convenient of you to “forget: the 43 other popes who preceded Leo. After Peter, who was martyred by the Romans in 64 or 67, we have Linus, Cletus, Clement, Evaristus and tens of others in between Peter and Leo. James was an early leader of the church, but he was not the apostle Jesus himself gave the “keys” to. If you bother to read the gospels, you’ll note that every listing of the apostles begins with Peter. You are in error when you say Paul had little regard for Peter, He sought out Peter from the beginning. Just because Paul challenged Peter on one issue, doesn’t mean he had no regard for his authority. Quite the opposite.

  • jcsmitty

    Derek: Please don’t agree with anything Jesuitical says until you’ve thoroughly researched it yourself. She is entitled to her opinion, but many sources disagree with her opinion. We do have more than the four gospels to rely on, including early Christians and church fathers who wrote about Jesus, Jewish and Roman historians, etc. Why anyone would die for being a Christian if it was all a “myth” is ridiculous, yet thousands and thousands of maryrs did just that. I wonder if Jesuitical would be willing to die for something she found questionable.

  • Joseph Jaglowicz

    “As long as [a couple incapable of conceiving] are open to the possibility of life when they have sex, it is not a sinful act.”

    With all due respect, a couple incapable of conceiving a child *cannot* biologically be open to the possibility of life — at least not without successful medical intervention! The “possibility of life” verbiage is pure baloney spouted by church hierarchs to unthinking sheople.

    I am making absolutely no comparisons between infertile couples and gay/lesbian couples. In accusing me of something I did not do, you are engaging in eisegesis.

  • Joseph Jaglowicz

    Why be a so-called “Catholic” school bending to the will of autocratic hierarchs when a genuinely faithful school can become a college/university “in the Catholic tradition” of true (read: relevant) engagement with the surrounding culture? Bishops today generally have little to offer higher education. Let the professors teach and engage critical thinking. Let the hierarchs figure out how to make the church relevant in a changing world.

  • Joseph Jaglowicz

    We all need forgiveness from time to time, and this forgiveness is guaranteed by God. It is God who initiates forgiveness, not you or me or anyone else. Forgiveness precedes (expression of) repentance. Repentance = healing = metanoia = change of heart. Only God can heal, not your confessor. It is Jesus who is, per the CCC, “the Physician”. In orthodox Catholic doctrine, only Jesus is “the Savior”, not the pope, your confessor, or your local bishop. In the gospels, Jesus instructs his listeners to forgive without limit. There is only one passage, in fact, where Jesus uses the word ‘repent’. Properly understood as the expression/sign of having been healed by God, repentance is acknowledging the unconditional love and enduring mercy of our Creator. There are no conditions set by Jesus in the gospels for God’s forgiveness. The latter is God’s initiative.

    Why does an offender need your forgiveness? Because you need to forgive: It is part and parcel of your basic human makeup, that’s why. The act of forgiving, besides being requested of you by God, benefits the one doing the forgiving, not necessarily (or at all) the person being forgiven. You need to forgive because your Creator instilled this need within you. If you refuse to forgive, if you continue to carry a grudge/etc., it is you who continue to carry the psychological load, not necessarily (or at all) the person who offended or hurt you. The offender may never learn of your act of forgiving. The offender may not want your forgiveness. God works in God’s ways and time. You forgive “the other” because you need to do so. God in the meantime will bring healing to the offender.

    Finally, when we think we are *seeking* God’s forgiveness, it is merely nothing more than evidence that God has been at work all along in *seeking* us to forgive (the prodigal son in Luke 15 comes to mind).

  • Joseph Jaglowicz

    Oh, well, there are folks who fall down in life.

  • Jesuitical

    Smitty, it is as I stated, little at all is stated about Jesus outside of the gospels. What very little josephus wrote about jesus, that little we have was added to.
    I don’t know who you are reading, but we have no original copies of the gospels and the copies we have are quite distant from any original. It is widely accepted that the gospels were written in Greek, a language foreign to the illiterate apostles. We do not know who wrote Luke’s gospel or any of them. Most scholarship credit multiple authors and editors to John’s gospel. It is thus a major stretch of imaginings to consider any of these works as inspired. What were inspired; the originals, which we do not have, the translations, the copy errors, the additions.
    The apostolic succession is a contrived manufacture. The early leader of the Christian Jewish sect was James, brother of Jesus, not the apostle. Peter was a go between from James to Paul. Paul considered Peter as the world’s greatest hypocrite.
    Never did I claim Leo as the first pope. What I said is that Leo is the first pope as we now know them. The early considerations, bishops of Rome had no greater influence than any of the patriarchs, all of whom, were vying for head leadership. The bishop of Rome had no more influence than any of them. In fact the early councils were called by the emperor, were conducted in Greek not Latin, and the pope only attended by invitation of the emperor.
    smittly you require both a history lesson as well as one in reading comprehension….you have been indoctrinated and regurgitate what you have been fed…not an independent thought can be found.
    The ‘giving of the key’ phrasings in the gospel, is most likely an addition as it does not fit into the gospel themes. Jesus would not even know what a church was, and the early church, ekklesia, was a gathering.
    What I have stated, unlike your kindling, is not something I contrived, and definitely not complying with the disingenuous constructs of the Roman church.

  • Baron Kaza

    ah the no judgement type…. may you be beaten to death long live judgment

  • Baron Kaza

    Yes and you are one them…. sorry the indoctrination from middle aged sodomite priests did not take over at Rose Hill, then again I am able to recognize Truth that you as a liberal are unable to…Burn the Rainbow Flag

  • FrJG

    So if Georgetown is trying to maintain an atmosphere of dialog, where is the Catholic voice? This piece makes it seem like a one-sided conversation, without any protection for students who try to uphold the Church’s rational teachings from ad-hominum attacks.

  • Tommie

    The priest from Georgetown, is gay you can tell right off the bat. The name Catholic should be removed from the school. Engaging in dialog is a lot different then letting someone display there mortal sin right in the open on a catholic campus. The priest are helping them commit the sin by allowing them to feel what they do is ok and not a sin. So shall the sins be on them as well.

  • jcsmitty

    What makes you think you are not indoctrinated? Repeating your original misstatements doesn’t make them any more factual. History bears out the apostolic succession with the names and years of the popes from Peter to Pope Francis. The Council of Jerusalem, as recorded in the Acts of the Apostles, was the first church council–and it was called by the Apostles, not the emperor. Peter was the First of the Apostles, his name always first in any listing of the Apostles. He is mentioned multiple times more than any other apostle, including James! One of the reasons for the split between the Eastern and Western churches was, indeed, the refusal to recognize the bishop of Rome as the “First of the Apostles,” but that only proves that the claim was asserted. As for the “keys,” this is not an isolated understanding without a history behind it. In the Old Testament a king could delegate his authority to a prime minister by giving him the keys that would “bind and loose.” The apostles might all confer, but when a final decision had to be made, it was Peter who made it.
    I came across the following a little while ago and thought you might find it of interest since it goes back tow here we started.
    Renowned historian Will Durant, who was not a Christian, wrote the following in The Story of Civilization, Vol III: Caesar and Christ.

    “The Christian evidence for Christ begins with the letters ascribed to Saint Paul. Some of these are of uncertain authorship; several, antedating A.D. 64, are almost universally accounted as substantially genuine. No one has questioned the existence of Paul, or his repeated meetings with Peter, James, and John; and Paul enviously admits that these men had known Christ in his flesh. The accepted epistles frequently refer to the Last Supper and the Crucifixion…. The contradictions are of minutiae, not substance; in essentials the synoptic gospels agree remarkably well, and form a consistent portrait of Christ. In the enthusiasm of its discoveries the Higher Criticism has applied to the New Testament tests of authenticity so severe that by them a hundred ancient worthies, for example Hammurabi, David, Socrates would fade into legend. Despite the prejudices and theological preconceptions of the evangelists, they record many incidents that mere inventors would have concealed the competition of the apostles for high places in the Kingdom, their flight after Jesus’ arrest, Peter’s denial, the failure of Christ to work miracles in Galilee, the references of some auditors to his possible insanity, his early uncertainty as to his mission, his confessions of ignorance as to the future, his moments of bitterness, his despairing cry on the cross; no one reading these scenes can doubt the reality of the figure behind them. That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so loft an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospel. After two centuries of Higher Criticism the outlines of the life, character, and teaching of Christ, remain reasonably clear, and constitute the most fascinating feature of the history of Western man.”

  • Jesuitical

    I am not indoctrinated as I have no intention of rewriting history. And, I would think that it is a little late in the game for you to do so.
    Apostolic succession is not factual. Since little is known outside of the gospels, you cannot continue to quote them as evidence for itself. No earnest scholarship doubts Jesus’s existence. Yet you go on and on with the Christian Bible and the Jewish Bible, neither of which is history or ever intended to be. No you ought not fall into the folly of justifying Jesus existence which is not denied by citing contradictory gospel recording of what Jesus reputedly said on the cross. What Jesus said in his dying statement varies one gospel to the next. You cannot prove a point by bandying words. Somehow you seem to think that presenting an argument where there is none, is somehow making a point. The sole issue in this is that the canonical gospels are not the word of God, only the word of man about God. That the gospels are not history, does not disprove the existence of Jesus which is not being denied anyway.

  • Joseph Jaglowicz

    The only Truth (upper case): God is Love.

  • Joseph Jaglowicz

    The only Truth (upper case) is *God is Love*.

    If only your warped comments reflected even a ray of this Truth.

  • Joseph Jaglowicz

    And if you read James Davidson and Dean Hoge’s “Mind the gap: The return of the lay-clerical divide”, you’ll see how the increasing numbers of so-called “JPII priests” are going in one direction while lay Catholics — old *and* young — are moving in the opposite direction. JPII clergy: Built-in obsolescence! Useless.

  • jcsmitty

    We began this back-and-forth after I disagreed with your statement that outside the gospels there was no evidence that Jesus existed. I’m glad you acknowledge that the existence of Jesus “Is not being denied anyway,” but you seem intent on defending your original statement. The fact remains that you were in error and that there IS evidence outside the gospels. I previously mentioned the Jewish historian Josephus, but you dismissed him out of hand because you claimed material was added to his work. However, even setting aside his Testimonium Flavianum in Antiquities 18:3, 3 that is partially corrupted, Josephus refers to Jesus, “who was called Christ,” in Antiquities 20:9,1 in a passage where there is no evidence of corruption.
    In addition to Josephus, there is also references from Roman writers that support the existence of Jesus:
    Suetonius, writing around A.D. 121

    Tacitus, writing around A.D. 116

    Pliny the Younger, writing in A.D. 110 or 111

    The Emperor Trajan, writing back to Pliny in A.D. 110 or 111

    It is a waste of time discussing “history” with someone who takes it upon himself to define what is and is not “history” when the facts don’t line up with one’s biases. If you want to dismiss the apostolic succession because you decide it is not “history,” then be my guest. But the men who succeeded Peter are historic figures whether you acknowledge that or not.
    Where we may have an honest disagreement is whether the gospels are the inspired word of God or simply the words of men.. It is my belief that the men who wrote the gospels were, indeed, inspired by God. I f you believe otherwise, that’s fine. Let’s just leave it at that.

  • Jesuitical

    smitty, you have a major reading difficulty. How many times must you read words before you hear them. For a final time; there is little corroboration about anything written in the gospels,from outside sources. Little is written about Jesus outside the gospels. Jesus traveled in a limited area. Little was known of HIm during His lifetime….only after Jesus’s death; the rise of the gentiles in the church, conversion of Constantine, the rapid growth of Christianity coincided with the Dark Ages. No reputable scholarship denies Jesus lived.
    Yet despite what I’ve attempted to get through, you continue to argue where there is none. Minor references to the life of Jesus does not validate the gospels as anything but hearsay.
    It matters not to me what you believe, that is a non issue…what does matter is that truthfulness is a distraction to you. History is not a manifestation of your wish, but is independent of you and your thoughts. In any study, it is essential to a discussion of history to realize and separate what is fact from a discussion and opinion of fact. What you seem to do is nothing but a regurgitation of what you have been fed by the church, dismiss out right differences with an unquestioning belief lacking the support of evidence or proof. For example; it is not a conjure of mine that apostolic succession is bogus. I consider a valid and accepted position of worthy scholars. Also, please note that I am not stating that the individuals listed as pope did not exist. What I am inferring that these early popes were not popes as we now know them…that they had no standing superior to the patriarchs…that these individuals quarreled among themselves, had varying theologies, excommunicated one another…there was no central church or body of theology. Prior to the Council of Chalcedon 451 CE, and after it, more Christians killed other Christians than did any Romans. Finally, get this; Jesus lived…we do not know whether what was said of Him is fact.

  • Jesuitical

    “Because if you stand for nothing, you fall for anything.”
    That statement is putting words into a mouth that did not speak them, and is only representative of your ‘value judgment’. Your third statement is a constraint on the endeavors of a valid university. A ‘true’ university lives up to the denotation of its name which incorporates ‘universe’ and all it has to offer…that is learning which stands for everything and sits for nothing.

  • cipher

    You’re a psychopath, but of course, you’re also too mind-numbingly stupid to realize it.

  • Baron Kaza

    Oh no a liberal tried to insult me.. I would enjoy breaking your neck like a twig… here’s to mass extermination of secular liberals….go fuck yourself .. be a patriot kill a liberal

  • Baron Kaza

    No God is Justice….and He will deal with sodomites like you…. God is wrath

  • Baron Kaza

    What do you say,, Joey Boy lets just have the civil war we both deep down really want, we both hate each other, I say lets do it. lets settle all the arguments once and for all… we both want each other dead along with our respective beliefs… what do day Joey… got the guts to back up snide liberal comments… I have the guts to admit I hate you and everything you stand for… hate is purifying and empowering … remember this though my side has ALL THE GUNS

  • Derek

    Thank you for reminding me about the Church fathers and the historical accounts. They can be good resources too. Unfortunately, those other accounts of Jesus (like the Gospel of Thomas) are used to discredit the Gospels that I overlook them and stick with the main 4 Gospels.

  • Big Mike

    Is that a truth?

  • Jesuitical

    …more than some on this thread can bear.

  • Senjata

    Georgetown alumn here. Yet despite my academic credentials, I have a tough time understanding why Georgetown would change to accommodate students who have already enrolled. Do students enroll at a university because they hope the school will change? Or do they enroll because of the cultural and academic traditions that a university has nurtured throughout the years?

  • cipher

    We do have more than the four gospels to rely on, including early
    Christians and church fathers who wrote about Jesus, Jewish and Roman historians, etc

    No. There are no contemporaneous accounts, or accounts written shortly afterward, apart from two lines in Josephus that are widely believed by scholars to be a later addition.

    You really don’t know what you’re talking about.

  • sanityismine

    a ‘value judgement’, how quaint and intolerable.

  • Jesuitical

    “a ‘value judgement’,[sic], how quaint and intolerable.
    Ah, that to which we stand; education or folly, knowing or subjugation, freedom to observe, reason, and study freely, or to remain a sheep, acquiescing and mindlessly obedient.

  • Derek

    Which bishops? Cite your sources. And the fact that you’re calling me ‘nasty’ is laughable. What you said was a lie, and I called you on it. How is that ‘nasty’?

  • Derek

    You must be an academic, because you found a way to write an entire paragraph that doesn’t really say anything.

  • Derek

    You still hold a contradiction to be true.

  • Derek

    Yes, they can be open to life. No doctor can say for sure if a couple cannot conceive. Who’s to say they can’t be like Abraham and Sarah?

  • Derek

    I’m 23 years old (and I reverted to Catholicism at age 20). There are very few Catholics in my generation who consider themselves ‘Jesuitical’ or ‘liberal Catholics’. The truly liberal catholics have stopped going to Mass and participating in the life of the Church altogether. I went to Loyola Chicago, and most of the Jesuit novices are significantly more “conservative” (I use that term loosely since they are not Latin Mass Catholics, or anything…they just don’t make dissent part of their religion) than their superiors who were really defined by the Church infighting of the 1970s and 80s. Younger Catholics are not following their parents’ (and some grand parents’) Catholicism.

  • Jesuitical

    You sound like an adolescent in a schoolyard; you lie. As I said; you’ve been asleep for a long time. My mistake is thinking that you have awakened.

  • Jesuitical

    Obviously, what I have written ought not be intended for you, but one who requires something erudite rather than concrete. I’m sure the cataclysmic catechism is legalistic and sufficiently concrete for your need. Even if you suffer from the ‘folly of faith’, that in itself, is no excuse for not knowing, and definitely not for plunging into areas the wilderness of thought has left you unprepared.

  • Joseph Jaglowicz

    Good God Almighty!

    Get real.

  • Joseph Jaglowicz

    God’s justice is giving us our due, and our due is God’s unconditional love and eternal salvation.

  • Joseph Jaglowicz

    Off your meds?

  • Joseph Jaglowicz

    If opportunity permits, stop by a university or public library that subscribes to COMMONWEAL MAGAZINE. The referenced article can be found in the issue of November 19, 2007.

  • Baron Kaza

    unrepentant sodomites like you won’t be making that trip….

  • Baron Kaza

    Just got out of the Bathhouse faggot?

  • Baron Kaza

    COMMIE Weal ha ha ha ha ha almost as bad as National catholic Distorter….aka fishwrap

  • Guest

    You sure do miss a lot of reason and obvious truths about how the world came to be and why those residing in it are they way they are, when living your life by the scriptures. That is all.

  • Cyril J. Carroll

    Yes Mike what Jesuitical has been writing is based upon many serious scholars who have written about the beginning of the movement called the ” followers of Jesus Christ.”

  • Cyril J. Carroll

    Sorry “misterheche” the current New organization that you cite is supported by the conservative, republican, catholics in this country.